S8 E3: Supporting Adolescent Boys w/Adam Lewis, M.A.

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• EPISODE RESOURCES

  Adam Lewis, M.A.

  • Head of School at Catholic Memorial in Boston, M.A.

  • Former Principal at Boston College High School and Principal at Loyola School in Manhattan.

  • Former Head of Senior School at Xavier College in Melbourne, Australia.

  • Former Vice-Principal of Students at St. Ignatius’ College, Riverview in Sydney, Australia.

  • Master’s Degree in Applied Developmental and Educational Psychology from Boston College.

  • Master’s Degree in Educational Leadership from Harvard

• EPISODE TAKEAWAYS

  • Boys are less likely to seek help for their mental health challenges. Mental health may manifest in ways that could appear to be behavioral and acting out, such as irritability, anger, substance abuse, promiscuity, etc. 

  • Adam talked about growing up in an all-boys school in Canberra, Australia in the 80’s and 90’s. After going into business and law, he realized he was not following his heart in his career and since pursued a career in education. He believes that authentic formation for boys is essential.

  • Adam worked in all-boys schools across the world, such as in Ireland, Sydney, Melbourne, and most recently in Boston. He feels regardless of place in the world, boys seem to face similar challenges. Boys can be generalized about in a convenient way, such as saying “Boys will be boys,” which labels boys and diminishes their uniqueness. 

  • Adam feels that traits that are characterized as ‘toxic masculinity’ have not been solved by previous generations for the current generation; while also offering a different way forward for the boys in his school to nurture their heart to doing better for themselves and future generations.

  • Adam priorities something that transcends the superficial and external; which he feels is ‘not easy’. The inner work of addressing one’s matters of the heart is the hardest part of growth. He seeks to get the information in their head to their heart - doing this work through service, retreats, curriculum, athletics, and co-curriculum. That’s where he feels the ‘formation’ begins that determines what kind of men they become. Adam normalizes how hard this can be for anyone rather than assuming that it’s easy. The barrier between their head and heart is acute and can be very difficult.

  • It can help to simply acknowledge that you do not understand - e.g.,, “I don’t know what it’s like to be you or live in your world as you are…” - and let them share and open up.

  • The boys growing up may be caught up in the superficial and mindlessness and at the same time they actually deeply want something more meaningful and authentic. 

  • All the signposts of ‘success’ feed into the superficial and the boys can internalize that these signposts are who they are. They can overly-identify with these outward ideas of ‘success’. Adam makes sure he knows the priorities are that their hearts are good and in what they are doing, or else the ‘accomplishments’ do not mean as much.

  • Adam finds that women may not get certain positions in an all-boys school; and yet he has seen many times over again that the boys’ interactions with women in the school truly moves their hearts; sometimes in ways that does not happen with the men in the school. Adam values the words of women in his life who he loves and love him - “It lands differently.” Most books about raising boys are written by men. Why not more women writing books about the topic? At the end of the day, it’s ‘both-and’ rather than ‘either-or’ in terms of the role of men and women in the lives of boys growing up. Understanding how to be a ‘man’ can be informed from different voices. We can learn different aspects from different people.

  • Boys growing up - really all kids growing up nowadays - seem to be yearning for depth and meaning. They may be seeking that more than previous generations and yet they are often labeled as being superficial despite deep down not even liking the superficiality culture they are growing up in. Everyone in the kid’s life is oftentimes so busy they do not even have the opportunity to feel grounded and connected even to their caregivers who could be trying to make ends meet and keep up with all the expectations they have in their own life. 

  • There can be such a cycle of shame for boys not living up to whatever expectations they have internalized. They may not feel permission to talk about it or open up about it. This can manifest in all kinds of behaviors and internalized suffering; even for the kids who on paper look entirely ‘successful’. The relationship - an authentic relationship - is so important to allow that to be shared and worked through.

  • It helps to pause and recognize the precious moments of depth, meaning, and connection, so the kids can know what it feels like and how important it is to cherish. They can be encouraged to go create those moments with others if that’s what they actually want; and to have the courage to do so in a genuine way.

  • It can really help when the connections and discussions are organic and not forced. 

  • It is in the silence and the still moments, as we discussed in the interview with Dr. Maryanne Wolf, where the ‘sacred’ exists; whatever you name or describe as the ‘sacred’ matters less than the actual experience of these precious moments of connection with others, with oneself, and with life. Some have religious or spiritual connotations for that experience but it can be however others may interpret it as they will, whether or not those are their beliefs; the experience remains.

  • Doing the internal work to examine yourself is hard. Some will say “that makes men soft” by talking about and reflecting on their emotions and what’s going on inside them…. but in reality, it makes them so much stronger. It is the hard way, not the easy way. It leads to unconditionally loving oneself and loving others; and even allowing themselves to feel loved by others.

  • Ruminating and obsessing can be an avoidance of actually feeling and working through internal challenges. It takes acceptance and vulnerability, otherwise it can get bottled up and lead to spiraling and more downstream issues. Being ashamed of having internal challenges and just ‘pushing through’ or ‘working harder’ may be advice that comes from a caring place, but it may not be what the person needs. There are so many ways to help someone else. Just telling them to work harder may not be the answer every single time. Knowing oneself helps the person to learn how to self-regulate rather than just suppressing everything inside them. Adults may or may not feel comfortable broaching certain topics of what’s going on internally; and if that’s the case, encourage something like counseling or therapy to help create a space to reflect and express what is going on inside them. 

  • The capacity for love is something that can be nurtured in young men, as it may not be something they are taught to do or care about as much within certain societal expectations and norms. This capacity may be the foundation upon which other positive experiences, growth, and successes can naturally occur. So much of society revolves around expectations these days. But if your heart is not in what you are doing, it may not matter at all.

• TRANSCRIPTION

  Alexis Reid  00:06

  Welcome back to the Reid Connect-ED Podcast, co hosted by myself educational therapist Alexis Reid and my brother, licensed psychologist Gerald Reid. We're providing you with expert and nuanced discussions on topics relevant to mental health education and sport and performance psychology. Across the country, educators and families are asking an important question, how do we help boys grow into thoughtful, capable and compassionate men in an increasingly complex world? Adolescence has never been simple, but today's boys face unique pressures from social media and academic expectations to questions about identity, purpose and belonging, schools are being asked to do more than just prepare students for college or careers. They're being called to help shape character, resilience, leadership and a sense of responsibility to something larger than themselves.

  Gerald Reid  00:59

  So where are we with the mental health of boys in high school these days, as we spoke about in past episodes, the mental health among youth has declined over the past two decades. So this is not a function of covid. This is not something that just happened during the days of covid. In fact, the mental health of adolescence has actually gotten worse over the past couple decades, and we're trying to really pick apart the pieces to that so we can try to, number one, prevent that decline and also do something to treat it. Roughly 25% of adolescent boys have a mental, emotional or behavioral disorder, and the CDC suggests that 20% of adolescents have unmet mental health needs, meaning that they have significant mental health concerns that are not being treated appropriately. And that's definitely a big issue. And when we look at men, so grown men, according to the anxiety and depression Association of America, one in 10 men have either depression or anxiety. That's clinically significant, and yet less than half of them receive treatment. What are the reasons why this has happened? You know, different pressures and societal pressures. I think one of the things that I hear a lot about and the questions that come up in therapy for me, since I work with a lot of males in my in my practice, is just this idea of, like, what does it mean to be a man? And I think the question is not a straightforward question, right? It's not a math equation. It's not like a fact that you can look up and say, Oh, this is exactly what it means to be a man. It's a very abstract idea, and that is happening in tandem with social media becoming so profoundly influential and so in the face of young people today. I mean, they're constantly on their phones. I was talking to my sister today about just looking down the street while people are walking. They're just constantly on their phone, looking down. I don't know how people walk and look at their phone at the same time they're at the gym. They're on their phone all the time at the gym. You know, it's just, you know, pervasive and and what I find is that, you know, there's a lot of messaging about what it means to be a man. People are kind of, you know, trying to fill in the blanks. You know, people who want to be influential on the social media platforms, people want to grow influential status and be a kind of what they call like a thought leader, right? There's a lot of people trying to fill in the gaps of trying to explain something that doesn't have a full answer. And one of the things about being a psychologist that's so important to me is that everybody is unique in their own way. So whenever you hear something that's very dogmatic in terms of this is the way this is for all men. I'm very, very skeptical about it. Any type of messaging that they're getting online is going to be very extreme and very dogmatic, and it misses the point that everybody has individual differences. We are a collection of qualities. We are not one thing, you know. And I find in my practice that people who come into therapy when they're honest and they're open, they open up about different parts of themselves that they feel like are not allowed to be shared in public or in the sphere of society or in collective groups of men or boys, right? And to me, it's one of the most profound experiences I can share about being a therapist. Is when they're honest, there are parts of themselves, their personality, their interests, their values, their curiosities, what they actually care about. It's much more complicated and much more nuanced. And I think that gets lost along the way in this age of social media, and I hear about young men and boys actually opening up to other young boys and men or women or whoever, and actually getting support that they need, because, as I said, Boys have mental health issues as much as anybody else in the world right and mental health concerns require opening up and being honest and sharing emotions, as opposed to all the Ways that boys have historically compensated for insecurities and challenges, right? There's a whole list, you know, acting out behaviors, being irritable, being angry, you know, being controlling in relationships, overworking, compensating with maybe promiscuity, or perhaps, you know, trying to be the big dog in a. Group or something like that, right? Or even, you know, getting obsessed over their what their body looks like. There's a there's a million ways people cope. As a psychologist, I've seen all the ways people cope with their insecurities and their challenges, and it's an important thing. And I'll end here. It's very important to understand that these are signs that there actually could be something underneath the surface. And it's important to not just say, Oh, that behavior is wrong, or there's something wrong with that behavior, but also to say what's behind that behavior. And as a psychologist, as a therapist, I'm really grateful that I give people a chance to understand what's going on inside of them that leads to these types of behaviors that could get them in trouble, could get them negative attention, could kind of mask the actual issues going on inside. So I'm so happy that we have Adam Lewis here today, and Alexis is going to introduce our guest today to talk about the topic of young men.

  Alexis Reid  05:48

  Now, thinking about all this, we were trying to find the right fit to have this conversation. And not only did Adam and I both study at Boston College in our graduate work, where we became, you know, people who just share deep thoughts about the things we were learning and our experiences and helping educate young people and just thinking about life in general. And Adam not only has a background in applied developmental and educational psychology, as I do, but he is also one of the most authentic and genuine people that there is that we've ever met. So today, we're joined by Adam Lewis, who is the head of school at Catholic memorial here in Massachusetts, as an all boys school, Catholic Memorial has a focus on forming young men through a combination of academic rigor, faith, mentorship, athletics and service. In this conversation, we'll explore what it really means to educate boys today, how schools can cultivate integrity and leadership, the role of mentorship and role models, the challenges boys are facing right now, and how educators, as well as families, can help young men develop the confidence, emotional intelligence and character they need to thrive. Adam, we're so happy to have you here.

  Adam Lewis  07:00

  Thanks. Lex, thanks. Jim, delighted to be here. Yeah.

  Alexis Reid  07:02

  So this conversation could probably go on for hours,

  Adam Lewis  07:05

  yes,

  Alexis Reid  07:05

  and likely it will, outside of the context of the studio and the podcast right now. But let's start just you know, we can give your resume forever, but I really want to know like, What drove you to this purpose driven life where you are at the center of the development of so many young men and boys? Yeah. I

  Adam Lewis  07:26

  mean, I think there's a number of reasons Lex, it was funny, like tangential, it's not a great way to start, but for me, so we're talking about boys, I was reminded, as you were sharing some of our background, that you were the first two to see my boy when I was in hospital 16 years ago, yes, years ago, and I

  Alexis Reid  07:44

  almost dropped that we went to grad school in the early 2000

  Speaker 1  07:47

  Yeah,

  Adam Lewis  07:48

  and I don't want to give my resume boring and not relevant, but yeah, just reminded of that, and somewhat symbolically when we talk about boys, right? And, you know, I'm blessed with with two that I have a particular place in my heart. My daughter, I would say he's had more particular place. Actually, she's very beautiful. You were there when Isaac was born, and so we do have a really special relationship. So I feel so honored to be part of this conversation. It's something I feel so strongly about. What are the roots of it? I went to an all boys school myself.

  Speaker 1  08:21

  You can

  Adam Lewis  08:21

  probably tell from the accent. I grew up in Australia, in Canberra, Australia, I went to an all boys school Morris Canberra, which still occupies a very special place in my heart. But I was there in the in the 80s and 90s, and while feeling really blessed with my formation and education there, and it did it, certainly without that experience, I wouldn't have moved into education. You know, when I left school, I was I did what people advised me to do at that in that day and age, if you're a relatively smart man, you go and do business and law. And I started doing that, and became disillusioned within the first lecture and said, Why am I doing this? Because at that age, no one told me to follow my heart.

  Speaker 1  08:59

  I mean, I

  Adam Lewis  08:59

  literally say that to my 600 boys. It's Catholic Memorial who I love. But no one said that to me then and but I did find myself to education, and have been in it since, and feel very passionately about it. In fact, I feel more passionately about it now than I ever have, probably because of what Jerry shared at the beginning of the context, because I believe authentic formation, particularly for boys, and I will talk about boys, not in any way disrespectful to girls, but I don't pretend to know about girls. I've worked in all boys schools for 25 years,

  Alexis Reid  09:30

  and you've worked in a lot of different all boys schools

  Speaker 1  09:33

  across

  Alexis Reid  09:34

  the globe, actually, which I think gives you a really special, unique appreciation and perspective to share, too.

  Adam Lewis  09:39

  Yeah, I hope so. I've been, I've been very lucky,

  Alexis Reid  09:41

  yeah.

  Adam Lewis  09:41

  And I've worked, you know, at all boys schools in Ireland and and back home in Sydney and Melbourne and and now in Boston. And I was at BC high, which is a similar school to cm, in some ways, but each, each, all boys school has its own context, like that. A lot of it has to do with charism. So I've been very, very lucky. I. And I think it does help me with a with a certain perspective, but I can tell you that regardless of accent or country, boys are facing the same challenges. And I don't mean to generalize that, because I what Jared shed really resonated with me that we tend to particularly about boys. We tend to generalize about them in a way that's very convenient. And the worst thing that anyone can say to me is that boys will be boys. I have a visceral reaction to that, because what that does in terms of reducing them and diminishing them, and not identifying their individuality and our own context is actually soul destroying, and we label boys in a way that we don't with other groups. People have their own opinion on toxic masculinity. I don't like the phrase. It doesn't mean I don't acknowledge that there are traditional stereotypes and bravado that my generation hasn't solved for our young men, and I say that to my boys at Catholic Memorial all the time, and apologize to them and say that our generation has not solved this for you, but I am going to do my level best to move your hearts so you can for your sons. It's

  Alexis Reid  11:14

  beautiful.

  Adam Lewis  11:15

  And so I haven't answered the question directly, but I hope that it gives you a sense of why I feel so passionate about it. You know both know me well, I am idealistic by nature, and so I work in particular types of schools, because I believe in the schools I work, there is a call to something deeper, and there is an expect. I have, an expectation of our men in our place, a standard that transcends academics, transcends anything that's superficial, that has to go much deeper and be interiorized and internalized and moved in the heart in a way that is not easy. And I will say very openly to our men that the External Works easy, and I don't diminish that for them, because for some kids, math is really hard. For some kids, playing hockey is hard, getting cut is hard. I can't hockey is just a ridiculous sport. It's so dangerous I can't even enjoy watching the kids do because I wasn't. Doesn't matter. Let's not talk about hockey, either way, that stuff for me is easy. The hardest part is the interior work, and I will say very clearly to them that my biggest challenge is to through curriculum, through athletics, through co curricular, through service, through retreats, we've got to get the information that they receive in their head to their heart, and that's where the work begins, and that's where the formation begins, because how they wrestle With that will determine the type of men they are and what they value. But and I will say them very openly that I don't like doing that, because often I don't like what I find

  Gerald Reid  13:11

  I

  Adam Lewis  13:11

  just don't,

  Gerald Reid  13:12

  yeah,

  Adam Lewis  13:13

  because I'm a man formed in a particular way, I battle with my own demons about being a man. Who am I as a father? Who am I to stand in front of 600 boys and try and model a set of values? But what I know I have to do is do the work, and I have to go in the world says something very different nowadays. And I just, I'm speaking metaphorically, but I'm hoping it makes sense that if I believe that, if I believe that it has to go from their head to their heart, the barriers that exist between those two locations are so acute and so profound, and my responsibility on behalf of those boys is to Remove them, but it's play hard.

  Gerald Reid  14:01

  I am so appreciative that you phrased it that way, from their head to their heart, and how I think there's a lot of kind of public shaming about the thing that you brought up is that, as men or as any human being, we all have flaws, and I think it's been a challenge where men, I think, feel somewhat shamed for certain traits, because perhaps they're misapplying certain traits, or they're appearing to be toxic, as you're saying, toxic masculinity. And to me, as a psychologist, I always want to know what's driving the behavior, rather than just kind of shaming someone. And it is idealistic for me to say that, and I completely acknowledge that, as you know, we both share that idealistic version

  Speaker 1  14:50

  of

  Adam Lewis  14:50

  there's a kindred spirit there.

  Gerald Reid  14:51

  Yeah, right. There's

  Speaker 1  14:52

  a

  Alexis Reid  14:52

  reason we're all so connected,

  Speaker 1  14:54

  right?

  Alexis Reid  14:54

  When we are disconnected,

  Speaker 1  14:56

  but,

  Gerald Reid  14:56

  but what you're saying is that if you get to the authentic human. Spirit of a person, you're going to find that any type of behavior that seems toxic, and anybody can have toxic behaviors. That's part of being human, right? It's not just men who are toxic. Anyone could have toxic qualities. That's the shadow like, like any you know, any people, anyone who's studied the human condition from psychology to philosophy, understands that we all have like a shadow side to us, meaning that there's a part of us that could become destructive, right, or toxic, or whatever you want to call it. And I love how you're saying that to help someone with that, it's got to come in an authentic way with the heart, and that is about really connecting with people. And I do truly believe, especially the way that young boys have become more isolated too. That connection to really understand the human being for who they are, and understand where their behaviors are coming from, rather than just shaming them for the behaviors, is essential, I think, to helping not just boys, but this. This applies to any human being.

  Adam Lewis  15:59

  I couldn't agree

  Speaker 1  15:59

  more.

  Adam Lewis  16:00

  I mean, I think constantly my responsibility to our boys is to try and see the world through their eyes, right? It's an impossible task for me. It's an impossible it doesn't mean I don't have a red hot go at it, but I can't possibly empathize, and I spend days talking to our boys, and I can't get there. And what I do know, I think they love and respect me for trying as I love and respect them, but they're the most connected and disconnected kids that probably ever

  Speaker 1  16:31

  existed,

  Adam Lewis  16:32

  and that paradox, it has to be difficult, and I say very clearly that I don't think it's ever been harder to be a young person. I am absolutely clear that it has never been harder to be a young man. Because what does a good man actually mean? I think you said at the beginning, Gerald, like, what does that mean? And there is no, what did you say formula? Or there is none, and nor should there be, because we're talking ultimately about the human condition and and the messiness of that is actually beautiful. I mean, the reason I love working with boys is, you know, the only thing messier than a boys school of 600 boys is 601 boys. It just gets messy by the boys, but I absolutely love them for their messiness and imperfection, and it's okay for them to be like that,

  Adam Lewis  17:20

  and

  Adam Lewis  17:21

  our responsibility is to love them unconditionally, so they become men who love unconditionally,

  Gerald Reid  17:26

  yeah,

  Adam Lewis  17:27

  but,

  Gerald Reid  17:27

  but I think that what you're saying right there, I just want to hit

  Adam Lewis  17:31

  on that,

  Gerald Reid  17:31

  yeah, tolerating the uncertainty of that, and the uncertainty the that there is no straightforward way, of

  Speaker 1  17:38

  course,

  Gerald Reid  17:38

  I think is, if you think, from a meta perspective, is exactly what they need for themselves, because they're looking for answers to be like, Oh, this is what a man is. I'm going to act this way. I'm going to treat women this way. I'm going to do this or that this way, right? That, to me, that's an anxiety manifesting as I just want certainty. Just tell me what to do so I can fit in and I can be popular, or I can be, you know, have what I want, right? Which is, that's psychological to me, but it starts with tolerating the uncertainty. People don't like the messiness, but you're acknowledging the messiness is where the work is.

  Adam Lewis  18:11

  It's not only where the work is, where the beauty

  Gerald Reid  18:13

  is, that's nicely said,

  Adam Lewis  18:15

  that's where the beauty is,

  Gerald Reid  18:16

  yeah, that's nicely said, and

  Adam Lewis  18:17

  that's where the opportunity for growth exists.

  Gerald Reid  18:19

  You

  Adam Lewis  18:20

  know, I'm a lot older than I'm still bloody messy. I'm always going to be

  Speaker 1  18:25

  right,

  Adam Lewis  18:25

  and that's okay,

  Gerald Reid  18:26

  yeah, but

  Adam Lewis  18:27

  I've learned to accept

  Gerald Reid  18:29

  they need, people to allow them to be with the messiness, which is what therapy is. I see it every day. 100% bring their messiness and they're honest and they're open. That's the only way they get better. I've never worked with someone who got better without being honest,

  Adam Lewis  18:40

  of course, and and acknowledging that is one thing. Interiorizing, as I've said before, and really examining it is another, and that's hard, and I would hate to be 15 year old

  Speaker 1  18:55

  boy.

  Gerald Reid  18:55

  Yeah,

  Adam Lewis  18:56

  I literally could think of

  Gerald Reid  18:57

  nothing worse,

  Adam Lewis  18:57

  right? You know, I have a 1614, year old son. They drive me nuts in the same way. Same way I drove my parents nuts, I'm sure. But the reality is that I have an empathy for them that I don't have for myself when I was 15 or 16, at that age, you try and tell me how a young man or young woman, and I'll stick with men, because what I know, how do they possibly make sense of their world. They have to go into their heart and discern what's real in a way I never had to do.

  Gerald Reid  19:29

  Yeah.

  Adam Lewis  19:30

  I mean, how do you even work out what's real? You talked about the screens. You know, it's ironic in our place at cm, at Catholic Memorial, relationship trumps all. So everything is about relationship. It is a stunning school like I have been there for six months. It is so unique and so special. I have never worked in a place like it, and I have worked in good schools. I've been lucky, but the centrality of relationship that is. Centered in depth, is something that I haven't experienced in a place like I do at cm, and I feel privileged and blessed to walk in there every day, and the adults are sensational. But ultimately, it's about everything. It's about our boys and the relationships I share with them, the way they look after me. I've never experienced it before, but I look at them and go, I don't know how they make sense of any of this. Like, what does a relationship look like to them? I

  Speaker 1  20:27

  mean, for

  Adam Lewis  20:28

  some of them, a relationship exists on a screen. Like we sit there and we say, you know, you've got to be men of depth. You've got to be able to walk in people's shoes. You've got to truly understand someone's context. You have to love unconditional, whatever language it is we use with them, right? Which we mean. But when I speak to our boys, it strikes me over and over again. I don't even know what relationship means to these men. And the difficulty is that when they come into our place, I think we push them into the space, sorry, we draw them into the space, because you never impose anything on boys. Otherwise, soon as they leave you, they won't have those standards. We have to draw them to a set of standards which is harder, but much, much more beautiful. And the very concept of relationship, and the screen, whatever you want, the social media, the image piece, how they see themselves. And you know what? They're so sensitive.

  Gerald Reid  21:24

  I love what you just said that that's

  Adam Lewis  21:26

  such

  Gerald Reid  21:27

  a accurate way of putting

  Adam Lewis  21:28

  it, aren't they?

  Gerald Reid  21:29

  Yes.

  Adam Lewis  21:29

  I mean, they are so sensitive. And they feel, my God, they feel, you know, like but we don't, we don't attribute that to them, yes, but somehow they don't deserve that. I mean, they are the victims of generations of men who have gone before them, and we don't ascribe the beauty to them sensitivity, and I can tell you that they feel things in a way that others don't, and

  Speaker 1  21:59

  if

  Adam Lewis  21:59

  their relationship not right, and they don't feel loved, they will stop learning. And I've had some very short time period of time in coed schools, and girls do this better because they're smarter and they're more advanced and they're more mature. And we've known this for years, and now we're starting to realize it, and the girls leaving the boys in the dust,

  Gerald Reid  22:22

  yeah, and

  Adam Lewis  22:23

  that's okay.

  Gerald Reid  22:24

  Academically, their scores are worse, yeah.

  Adam Lewis  22:27

  Oh, girls crush them, right? There's no way I'm seeing my boys still coed school. I want to feel bad. I want Elsie to go coed school so she feel great hanging around the boys. But I love my boys, so not just mine, my 600 as well. So, but they will just stop learning if they don't feel it, and we know this about them. I mean, they're, you know, the research, better than me. I mean, Reichardt was the guy a little bit dated now, but it was all about relationship. You don't have a good relationship with

  Speaker 1  22:54

  boys

  Adam Lewis  22:54

  you lost them. Doesn't matter

  Gerald Reid  22:56

  how smart they

  Speaker 1  22:56

  are,

  Adam Lewis  22:57

  it doesn't matter how good they are at sport or anything like if you don't have the relationship piece right, yet, we still say, ah, boys feel, don't feel you're kidding yourself. I mean, they can't fake it. And I love that about them, but it puts high pressure. And in an all boys school, I feel the pressure acutely. Like every moment, every single moment with a boy is precious.

  Speaker 1  23:20

  And

  Adam Lewis  23:21

  I say that to

  Speaker 1  23:22

  them,

  Adam Lewis  23:22

  I will use language like this. Is a precious moment. I will use language like that. They're beautiful.

  Speaker 1  23:28

  I

  Adam Lewis  23:29

  will tell them that I love

  Speaker 1  23:30

  them.

  Gerald Reid  23:30

  Yeah, I think I've probably

  Adam Lewis  23:31

  said four times this podcast,

  Gerald Reid  23:32

  yeah. And,

  Adam Lewis  23:33

  you know what? They don't bad knowledge, and they wrestle with it because they don't. If I said about, you know, a 16 year old girl. She's a beautiful girl. That's fine. I say about one of my boys. See what's beautiful,

  Gerald Reid  23:48

  beautiful. Why

  Adam Lewis  23:48

  do we balk at that?

  Gerald Reid  23:49

  Yeah,

  Adam Lewis  23:50

  why do we balk at that? Because the world has a definition of what beautiful is. It doesn't suit boys. That's rubbish,

  Gerald Reid  23:56

  you

  Adam Lewis  23:57

  know? And

  Gerald Reid  23:58

  like you said, the messiness is the beauty of being human.

  Adam Lewis  24:01

  That's right, we can call them beautiful,

  Gerald Reid  24:02

  yeah,

  Adam Lewis  24:03

  like, I will call our boys beautiful. It freaked them out at first,

  Speaker 1  24:07

  but

  Adam Lewis  24:07

  that's okay. They know. They now know what it means,

  Gerald Reid  24:10

  right? Exactly

  Adam Lewis  24:10

  with context. But I mean that about them,

  Gerald Reid  24:14

  especially in the age of AI, how important is that that's humanity.

  Adam Lewis  24:17

  It is. It is. I mean, and, and so I look, I don't even know what the question was, right, but what I will say is that I think there's a pressure on forming boys into men that is more acute and harder than it ever has been. But the one positive is this, sorry, there's so many positive but this, for me, is the real positive, at least the conversations taking place like Gerald Lex like in the 80s. Do you think a conversation about boys like this would even happen?

  Gerald Reid  24:49

  Never.

  Adam Lewis  24:50

  No one told me what it meant to be a good man

  Gerald Reid  24:53

  like

  Adam Lewis  24:54

  you don't show pain, you're stoic, you're front up, you shut up, you get on with your stuff. You're either lucky. Your parents or you're not. I had a beautiful father who was gentle. I learned some of that, but without him, I wouldn't have and now the thing I love is that we talk about it. I literally sit down with our boys and say, what does it mean to be a good man in your mind? Tell me, what's in your Oh, rather than saying, Howie, I say, boys, how's your heart been moved today?

  Speaker 1  25:18

  Did

  Adam Lewis  25:18

  they tell me? Oh,

  Gerald Reid  25:19

  that's nice.

  Adam Lewis  25:20

  If I was in the 80s and one of the Mars brothers said he has your heart been moved here, I probably flip out like I wouldn't even know my heart. Geez. I've never even, apart from the fact that keeps me alive, I've never really thought about what else it does, right? I mean, really, I mean, I'm not being facetious. That's just the reality of it.

  Speaker 1  25:36

  Yeah.

  Adam Lewis  25:37

  But if we think that that conversation is easy for boys, we're kidding ourselves.

  Gerald Reid  25:41

  Yeah,

  Adam Lewis  25:41

  in my experience, and this is reflected back to me from boys who I've been fortunate enough to coexist with in schools who are now 40 and 41 and 42 Can I share a story,

  Alexis Reid  25:52

  please?

  Adam Lewis  25:52

  Okay, so there was a guy when I was in Ireland, I coached, I worked in a boarding school, I taught, I worked in a boarding house, lived with 7615 year old guys. I look back now, I had, I don't know how I survived. But anyway, they were like my little brothers. I was only 28 something. They ran rings around me. But I also coached the rugby team. And one of the boys I coached in rugby, he went on and was very successful, played how many times for Ireland, probably one of the most celebrated rugby players of all time. And he is still close now, he's a father now, right? Two beautiful sons. He's a beautiful father, which actually, for me, matters more. And he did an autobiography a couple of years ago. So the person writing the autobiography contacted me and said, hey, you know, what's your favorite stories about Rob? And, oh, my god, so I rattle off two or three stories and and I said, you know, I think, I think that's probably if I had an impact on him. I reckon those three things had the biggest impact. I read the book. Nope, the things he described were things that I had forgotten. They were moments.

  Speaker 1  26:49

  Wow, a word a sentence.

  Adam Lewis  26:53

  And why do I share that? Because you can get up and talk to boys as much as you want about what it means to be a good man that will help, but it'll only go so far if they don't feel it and witness it in unexpected moments you won't move their hearts. A week ago, I walked into school and I had a meeting upstairs. Was early, maybe 636, and so I was walking upstairs to the meeting, and one of our boys was sitting in the corner. There's alcove area, and he was plugging away on the computer. I won't say his name, but let's call him Johnny. And I said, morning, Johnny. How you doing? He goes, Oh, good. Thanks, Miss Lewis, how are you? I said, Good. What are you doing, mate? You're here early. And he was doing sport the night before. So I knew I was watching. It was like 10pm so I knew he got home late and everything is he I tried to do this last night, but I was just too tired. I said, I'm not surprised, but you played your guts out. You must be knackered. And he goes, Yeah, I'm pretty tired. And he's, I like to do it so I can, you know, come to school prepared. I said, You'll be okay. And I said, What is it? He said, I was going out this math stuff. I said, you like math, yeah. Honestly, I hate it. I said, Yeah, I'm with you and and I said, You seem stressed. I'm worried about you guys. I am. But once I get this done, I'm honestly I'll be okay. But yeah, thanks for checking in. I really appreciate I said, of course, mate. And as I walked off, he said to me, how are you doing, Mr. Lewis, are you stressed? Just think about that for a moment, right? The general scheme of things, that doesn't seem like much. It impacted me so greatly. And I said to him, I said, I'm actually pretty good this morning, yesterday afternoon, I was pretty stressed. I couldn't close out the day and track load of emails. And what the hell am I telling this kid like he's my therapist, this kid and so but it was a moment,

  Speaker 1  28:36

  and

  Adam Lewis  28:36

  I know that doesn't sound like much. I'm getting to the point. And so I walked upstairs, and I went through the day, and this just sat in my heart so beautifully,

  Gerald Reid  28:47

  yeah,

  Adam Lewis  28:48

  and so at the end of the day, I sort of found out where he was last class of the day, and two minutes before the end of the class, I walked up to bump into him, right? I didn't want him to think that I had gone up there intentionally. And as he came out of class, I said, How was your day? And he is good thing. He had a good day. It won't work that well. I said, that's great, yes. How was yours? I said, it was good as Hey, you got a second? He said, Yeah. I said I wanted to think I want to thank you for asking that question. And he said, day, yes, it's fine. You'll be taken aback. Yes. Wasn't that big a deal? I said it was. I said, I want you to ask that be a man that always asked that question, yes, and we ask everyone if they're stressed. I said, No. I mean, I don't want you asking if they're stressed. I said, I want you to ask the question, yeah. I said, you got me. And yes, yeah, I got you. I said, Why is that important? And he said, because it would have been easier not to ask the question. I said, Exactly. Oh, that's and I said, relearning moment. What did I feel when you asked the question? And he said, As true as I'm sitting here, he said, maybe you felt that I cared about you and loved you. I said, I did. Now it's a moment, but I felt so strongly that if he didn't know that he needed to know the power of it. Yes, when I reflected on that that night and did my interior work as I asked the boys to do, I felt that in that moment, he had communicated to me that I could be a leader of an all boys school and be strong and gentle. And I hope that I communicated the same thing to him, and I say to our boys all the time that because we always call the boys Gentlemen, gentlemen, gentlemen. No, no, you got to earn the gentle you got to earn. Oh, I like that. And so I say to them, I will call you gentle men. When you hear me, call you gentlemen. When you hear me, put the space and I call you gentle men, wow, that's the standard. And I want our boys, above all, to be gentle and loving, but I also need them to understand that that is where the greatest strength lies. Wow. It's not on ripping the head off someone on offensive line, right? Yeah.

  Speaker 1  30:59

  I mean,

  Adam Lewis  30:59

  that's a certain type of strength. Again, another sports brutal, right? But that's not strong. That's not strength like that's the strength that I grew up with. That's how I understood strength. I have come to learn strength as something fundamentally different, way harder, way harder. And I've come to learn because of my own children and because of the boys that I am blessed to walk. They teach me every day like and I say to them that I will hold you to a standard, but you've got to hold me to

  Speaker 1  31:29

  it, and

  Adam Lewis  31:30

  when I fall short of it, you got to tell me. And they do. And if I speak to them and I'm off, or if I speak to them and they feel as though I'm guarded, or it hasn't come from my heart, they say it to

  Speaker 1  31:41

  me, wow.

  Adam Lewis  31:42

  And I love that, and they should. And there's learning in that, because they're looking at it going, Hey, if he's telling us to live from his heart, and we feel as though he's not, I'm going to hold him to that standard. And if our boys become men who hold that standard as husbands, as fathers, as workers, they will have that gentleness. And in fact, my biggest job is to give them permission to be gentle.

  Gerald Reid  32:08

  Yeah, exactly.

  Adam Lewis  32:10

  And so, I mean, you can see how much this means to me, right? Like, this is the stuff, and

  Gerald Reid  32:16

  gotta be courageous to do it so

  Adam Lewis  32:18

  courageous because you're also working with boys who have fathers who feel, in some cases, feel fundamentally differently because of the way they were raised.

  Gerald Reid  32:26

  Right exactly?

  Adam Lewis  32:27

  I don't know if, I don't know if I would understand that manhood had this capacity, or that we could talk about it this way. If I wasn't blessed enough to spend 25 years working with young men and doing all I can to see the world through their eyes. I don't know if I would feel that way. Maybe I would because of my own three you know, they moved my heart in a way I never thought possible, and taught me how to love. But the reality was that shouldn't be necessary. That shouldn't be necessary if I was the man I should be, I shouldn't have to rely on others to open my heart, because I should be examining it myself, and it should have capacity. I am a man who has had to rely on others, yourselves, people who I love, people who have been in my life to open my heart, and that's okay, because he's about relationship, but my capacity shouldn't

  Speaker 1  33:17

  depend on it.

  Adam Lewis  33:18

  I don't want our boys to be men whose capacity relies on others. I wanted to be there. Does

  Gerald Reid  33:25

  that

  Adam Lewis  33:25

  make sense?

  Gerald Reid  33:26

  Yeah, to be the standard,

  Speaker 1  33:28

  to

  Alexis Reid  33:28

  the standard, like that has to be the standard. I just got to pause you guys for a second, because, well, not even

  Adam Lewis  33:33

  that, sorry, like some revenue.

  Alexis Reid  33:35

  No, I'm sitting here nodding, for those of you who can't see us, I'm just nodding my head, and I'm also basking in the beauty of two men who I truly love so much as such a big part of me just speaking so beautifully about the things you care so much about and and to know that not only are you in my life, but that you're in the lives of so many others in such a beautiful way that is so authentic and so true to your purpose and service and mission to others that it just blows me away. So I am I'm like, tearing up, and I'm so grateful. But I also wanted to share that everything you both are saying is so important, especially because the men and boys that I work with across the lifespan, I often hear from them that they're getting just such superficial like surface level information. Whenever they inquire about something, whenever they share their uncertain about something, they're not really getting genuine responses to their questions. And it could be something as simple as, like an educational query, that they're like this the way you explained, it doesn't make sense to me. Can you show me a different way, or explain this a little further that, you know, they often get gas lit into thinking there's something wrong with them in a situation, to even ask a question, or even in, you know, I had a conversation with one of my college students this week where he's preparing to, you know, interact with folks in the business world to get an internship in a co op and and he's. Like the guidance I've been getting is just so superficial. It's like the same thing over and over again. It's not unique to me and who I am and my experience. And you know, it's it's such a disservice that we're doing to a lot of young people, especially young men, who have this standard in their mind of what they need to do and what they need to accomplish, but the target's constantly moving, and they really don't have any concept or idea of where to start or even how to conceptualize the target that they feel compelled to be working towards in their lives. Across every aspect, my context is more educational. But you know, in the work I do, it's not just about, you know, are you going to improve the way you learn. It's about being a learner in life, to be able to learn about yourself, to be able to learn about people that you work with, to learn about you know, what are the next steps? What is even possible, instead of just following this non existent, perfect line trajectory that, again, is is shifting and turning and twisting without anybody giving, especially young boys and men, any information about how to understand themselves, enough to even know how to guide themselves,

  Gerald Reid  36:08

  and then it leads them to take generic advice of, just work harder.

  Alexis Reid  36:12

  Oh my gosh,

  Gerald Reid  36:13

  which exactly is exactly what you're saying. It pre

  Alexis Reid  36:16

  focus more. Work harder. Just do your best. Or, you know, don't stop.

  Gerald Reid  36:21

  And I think, you know, and so kind of, I'm going to tie all this all together from Adam's comment, your comment is, I think the older generation. I think this is not a generalization, but like, if there is an older, like, Generational approach to raising men and kind of that toughen up, work harder, right, being really hard on the boys to learn lessons and, like, really being, like, punitive in a harsh way, right? To me, it's like we have to evolve how we help, right? Because that, in some ways, that could have actually came from an intention of wanting to help. And as you're saying, like, there's so many different ways to help someone. It's not just work harder, like, that's what you're saying. There's different ways to learn what you need, learn how to navigate situations that's unique to you and to understand yourself. And I think it's important for adults to evolve, to say, like, it's, there's different ways to help. Like, don't be afraid of trying a different way to help. I think adults get afraid of like, well, it's going to make them too soft or whatever, you know, and that's kind of missing the point. Well,

  Speaker 1  37:19

  I'm going

  Alexis Reid  37:20

  to, I'm gonna, I'm gonna add to that a little bit too. And I think you both said this before, that the landscape is totally different than when we grew up, right? I've been talking a lot about how, like, decades of life sometimes dictate different things, needs and realizations, depending on, you know, where you're at at different points in your life. But I don't think it's decades anymore. It's like such a very finite, small range of years that we're seeing these really broad differences in understanding technology, understanding the world, understanding ourselves. And I think it makes it even more difficult that we have even broader of a divide between the people that are supposed to be a role model and mentor in the lives of young people and the young people, which makes it even more difficult and, and I know both of you, and you've said this a little bit already, that you know the answer, right, in very simple terms, is, is to ask good questions, to try to, as you said, add, you know, walk in the shoes, to gain the perspective of these Young people, because even though we are living in the same world, we are not living in the same world, and it's very difficult. And you know, not to say that it's impossible, but the authenticity of saying, I don't know what your experience is,

  Adam Lewis  38:34

  correct,

  Alexis Reid  38:35

  but I do know what role I can play in the way I can

  Speaker 1  38:39

  be

  Alexis Reid  38:40

  a part

  Speaker 1  38:40

  of

  Gerald Reid  38:40

  complex?

  Alexis Reid  38:41

  Yeah, absolutely.

  Adam Lewis  38:43

  They tell me, like, can

  Alexis Reid  38:44

  you share some of, like, the things

  Adam Lewis  38:47

  you hear, I can't relate to your world,

  Alexis Reid  38:48

  yeah?

  Adam Lewis  38:49

  So tell me about it.

  Alexis Reid  38:49

  Yeah.

  Gerald Reid  38:50

  They'll tell you that shows respect.

  Alexis Reid  38:52

  Oh, 100% that's how you build trust in relation.

  Adam Lewis  38:54

  The other thing, especially with boys, you're right. Like, work harder

  Speaker 1  38:57

  I do with my own

  Adam Lewis  38:57

  boys, then I stop and go. What does that

  Speaker 1  39:00

  mean?

  Adam Lewis  39:01

  Seriously,

  Alexis Reid  39:01

  yeah,

  Adam Lewis  39:01

  what does that mean and but you know what I don't do with

  Speaker 1  39:05

  my daughter?

  Adam Lewis  39:06

  Why don't I? Oh,

  Alexis Reid  39:06

  that's interesting,

  Adam Lewis  39:07

  because I reduce our boys. And I'm the head of an all boys school. I check myself, but that is generations of reducing boys.

  Gerald Reid  39:17

  It's in green. I

  Adam Lewis  39:18

  do it less now, and when it happens, I correct it, but there is still that tendency to do it. And if you ask boys, how can I help you do what works for you? How can I make it better? What's in your heart? The stuff I say that's

  Gerald Reid  39:32

  getting in the way,

  Adam Lewis  39:33

  they'll turn Yeah, like, what's the biggest barrier? Boys Tell me. But let's, let's talk about, what

  Gerald Reid  39:36

  are you preoccupied about? What are you anxious about? What are you burnt out about? Whatever

  Adam Lewis  39:41

  it is. I mean, this is your work. I mean, you got to build the trust. You got to get them. They're hard work. Once you got them, they'll run through war for you.

  Alexis Reid  39:50

  Yeah,

  Adam Lewis  39:51

  they won't be loved. If they believe you love them,

  Speaker 1  39:54

  they will

  Adam Lewis  39:55

  do anything for you, but it's hard work and the superficial. I. I don't even know where to start with this. I mean, you know, there's a Jesuit who is the superior of the Society of Jesus. I just love this man to talk about the epitome of gentleness and strength. And his name was Father Nicholas. He died a couple of years ago. He coined the phrase the globalization of superficiality, right? And

  Speaker 1  40:15

  then

  Adam Lewis  40:15

  the Pope, who happened to come from the Jesuits, well, talked about the globalization of indifference. Those two terms really sit with me, right? And so this is the context in which our young people exist. It's very real. It's very real. You know, after this podcast, the three of us will go sit down and we'll, you know, we may grab a beer and have a chat, and we won't even look at our phones, like, if we think that our young people can do that at 2122

  Speaker 1  40:39

  like we used to, right? Like they

  Adam Lewis  40:40

  can't do that.

  Gerald Reid  40:41

  No, it's so sad,

  Adam Lewis  40:42

  but, but in my heart, I believe they want

  Speaker 1  40:45

  to.

  Adam Lewis  40:46

  And so that's the bit we've got to hold on to. Yeah, in fact, I think they want more. Oh my God, because they, what we think is that, oh, they live in a super chill, different world. They must like it. They freaking hate it,

  Gerald Reid  40:58

  but

  Alexis Reid  40:58

  that's freaking

  Adam Lewis  40:59

  hate it, like they'll say that to me, yeah, oh my God, I want to sit my phone. You want to engage in a conversation, to a dance with the freshmen? Sophomores. Go talk to the girls. You know, they want to talk to the girls. I go, Oh my god, talk to the girls. Like, I mean, what the hell someone going over, introducing myself? You know, if I can't help you, Jerry, I can't help anyone. But the point is that, but, like, it's an anecdote, and it's funny at one level, but there wasn't a boy there who didn't

  Gerald Reid  41:27

  want to do it.

  Alexis Reid  41:28

  Yeah, yeah. Well, that's a whole nother issue.

  Adam Lewis  41:30

  They want

  Adam Lewis  41:30

  to we've talked

  Alexis Reid  41:31

  about social anxiety, like twice here already, like, dedicated episodes about social anxiety, because the prevalence of that has just escalated. Right? How do we relate to each other? How do we talk to each other?

  Speaker 1  41:43

  What's the right way of doing it? There is no right way.

  Alexis Reid  41:46

  This is why we have this podcast, right? Because we get to have these really unique and really amazing conversations with young people that I think get buried in a lot of these generalizations of what's wrong with young people today. And I can't, you know, Jerry got to meet some students that I was working with a couple weekends ago. And you know, they both were like, Oh, you guys are so lucky. You grew up in the 80s and 90s. We wanted that. They're like, no technology, the stress and pressures were different. You can get into college without having 80,000 things. And you know, my whole argument, especially thinking about the academic and educational aspects of things is, you know, you can do college when you get to college, but you need to be ready for it. You need to be ready to step into the world with the confidence and

  Adam Lewis  42:30

  not just academic

  Alexis Reid  42:31

  always everything. Yeah, you

  Adam Lewis  42:32

  know the iceberg stuff. I mean, do you remember

  Gerald Reid  42:35

  how that conversation started? Though? I simply said, Hey, what is it like to grow up these

  Alexis Reid  42:39

  days? Yeah.

  Gerald Reid  42:40

  That set the stage.

  Alexis Reid  42:41

  Yeah,

  Adam Lewis  42:42

  I made it. How

  Alexis Reid  42:42

  many times did they get that question? Probably, probably never.

  Adam Lewis  42:46

  I speak to my boys one of the time, like, it's not easy.

  Alexis Reid  42:49

  Yeah, they

  Adam Lewis  42:49

  don't actually like it,

  Alexis Reid  42:50

  right? A

  Adam Lewis  42:51

  lot of them don't because they crave meaning. They crave connection,

  Alexis Reid  42:56

  yes,

  Adam Lewis  42:57

  depth,

  Gerald Reid  42:57

  and they get it in the wrong places. Now, sometimes, wouldn't you through the Yeah, right, exactly. Well, you

  Speaker 1  43:02

  go

  Adam Lewis  43:02

  find a chat. That's

  Gerald Reid  43:03

  when they kind of get, you know, the influences. It

  Adam Lewis  43:05

  has to be instant gratification, everything, all the all the signposts they're saying to success in college, the GPAs, state championships, yeah, I literally say to our boys, I said, I will never see you as your GPA, I will never see you as your college. I will never see you as your state championship ever.

  Gerald Reid  43:21

  Yeah,

  Adam Lewis  43:22

  like, I don't care about that stuff. It's great if you do it. That's not you.

  Speaker 1  43:26

  But,

  Adam Lewis  43:27

  and I say very clearly, in our place, this group of people in our school at the moment, this is our moment in time. We'll have 110 seniors leave. We'll have 110 new kids in the building next year. This is our year. And the only metric, the only metric that we measure each other by is how deeply we love each other for this year

  Gerald Reid  43:46

  and love themselves.

  Speaker 1  43:47

  Yeah,

  Adam Lewis  43:48

  and through that love and call ourselves to something deeper in our place, we say, Christ,

  Speaker 1  43:52

  what does that

  Adam Lewis  43:52

  mean for young men? I don't know, but I had that conversation with them, and, you know, they want to have it. And so that's the stuff that matters. And if there's a state championship and a couple of kids go to Harvard whatever, that's great, and I'm proud of them. I love them. I'll congratulate them. But if their hearts aren't good, I don't care about Harvard.

  Gerald Reid  44:10

  I care

  Speaker 1  44:10

  less

  Adam Lewis  44:11

  about the state championship,

  Speaker 1  44:12

  and I certainly

  Adam Lewis  44:12

  don't care about the GPA. And so that that stuff is very difficult, easy for me to say, harder for boys to process. But if you think for one second they don't want to have the conversation, it keeps it and it's easy as adults to say they don't want to have it, or we don't understand their world, that that is doing them a great, great disservice, you know? And we I mean, but even the way we look at look, I'm a male head of an all boys school, right? I'm a male head of an all boys school because I'm male and because I'm Catholic, and it's a Catholic school. Now, I'm not saying that in any self deprecating way. I have gifts, right? But I know that because of my gender, because of my religion, I have been put in position. Decisions, sometimes not when I'm ready, because the woman who is more experienced and better won't get it. Now, the irony in that is the most powerful moments I have seen in 25 years of boys education is when a woman is speaking to boys. Wow, they physically lean in. But do you think they would ever say that to that woman like, would they ever go and say, Hey, miss you. Move my heart on that. If I did it, would they say it to me? Absolutely?

  Gerald Reid  45:34

  Yeah,

  Adam Lewis  45:35

  they're fine with that. That still exists, and so certainly in all boys schools, we're still mired in that, right? We're moving definitely. But that's a big piece of it, like I have done this whole podcast, all I've done is talk about boys and men and men and boys and boys. Look.

  Gerald Reid  45:54

  What about the women? The single

  Adam Lewis  45:55

  biggest piece,

  Gerald Reid  45:56

  yeah,

  Adam Lewis  45:58

  how am I? Who am I to tell a boy to be a good man when my generation has completely stuffed

  Gerald Reid  46:04

  it up. What do

  Adam Lewis  46:05

  I know about being a good man? Honestly, not a lot. But I can tell you that the women I love in my life,

  Gerald Reid  46:12

  yeah,

  Adam Lewis  46:13

  and who I'm lucky enough that they love me,

  Gerald Reid  46:16

  yeah, that's where it comes from.

  Adam Lewis  46:18

  They'll tell me. And I can tell you when they tell me, it lands differently.

  Gerald Reid  46:24

  Yeah.

  Adam Lewis  46:25

  Who am I?

  Gerald Reid  46:26

  Yeah,

  Adam Lewis  46:27

  to do that, it doesn't mean I can't try

  Gerald Reid  46:29

  Yeah, and it

  Adam Lewis  46:30

  doesn't mean I can't share with my boys my mistakes and where I'm flawed and what I try to be and what I think a good man is, but that's a big piece of it as well. Like we always talk about read stuff on raising boys, most of its men.

  Gerald Reid  46:42

  That's so

  Speaker 1  46:43

  true,

  Adam Lewis  46:43

  authors,

  Gerald Reid  46:44

  yeah, isn't

  Adam Lewis  46:44

  it? I mean, I spend my life reading about boys education.

  Gerald Reid  46:48

  Yeah, that's such a great point. I haven't

  Adam Lewis  46:49

  seen a lot of men, a lot of women write about boys education, yet

  Alexis Reid  46:52

  Challenge accepted.

  Adam Lewis  46:55

  I mean, I'm being honest. Like, it doesn't mean that we haven't changed. But I mean this sincerely, like

  Gerald Reid  47:02

  both are important, it's both, and it's not an either

  Adam Lewis  47:06

  or. Thank you, Jerry, you're right. I'm talking two dichotomies, or polarizing it too. I don't mean to do that. You're right. What I'm saying is, in our school as a man, I can have an impact on our boys in terms of them understanding themselves what it means to be a man. But my colleagues, who are women, can have a similar impact, but in a different way, exactly. And I do mean what I say when I said, my greatest lessons and understanding of what it means to be a man came from a woman, for sure, yeah, from women, from women who, who I love, and love me, right? I love that you're saying. So we've got, I don't have answers for that, no, no, but

  Alexis Reid  47:43

  I think that's important, and especially from a developmental perspective, that we all have a responsibility in in raising each other. And a lot of it has actually has to do with the way in which women are empowered to set their own boundaries, to voice their own opinion, to be a part of the conversation and and you and I know through grad school, you know, we had the great benefit of being interns at CAST years ago, and I will never forget, you know, who were we graduate students we didn't know as much as the people that we had an opportunity to sit at the table

  Speaker 1  48:12

  with,

  Alexis Reid  48:12

  and our voices were honored and listened to and engaged with, as much as you know, the great David Rose and all the folks that were around us that guided and mentored and taught us so much. And I think that is the privilege of this conversation, is that you know, we can talk from your perspective and being men in the life of other men, that a lot of times when they don't have role models or mentors that show them what it means to be a good man, and everybody's perspective might be different in what that definition is, and it should be, because everybody has different backgrounds and experiences and beliefs, but to be a good person, right? We're saying men and boys, but it's like, what is it to be a good human? What is it to be a good person? What does it be to be a good contributor to society. Because I think that is essentially, you know, the thread that runs through every single thing you guys are saying and and a woman's voice. And you know, this is for the women out there too, that in end, the men in the lives of women. And we can have a whole nother conversation about this another time that we need to be able to be those who have strong convictions and values. And not only do we say, we have them, we need to live by them. I say this to the young girls that I work with every day, I'm like, Oh my gosh, I wish I knew what I'm teaching you now when I was your age, because the powerhouse you will be, just because you know the value and worth of yourself, you know it's important to you, and you know how to manage the energies around you in a way that is supportive and safe but also powerful, that you can give your gifts. And I think, you know, honestly, I think this is a testament to the people that helped to raise us and the people in our lives to this day, that that the three. Of us are able to live such purposeful lives that you know, not only are they in line with our gifts and our talents and our our values, but you know, we've been able to amplify what we do on a level that reaches hundreds and 1000s of people, which is unbelievable. I go to bed, you know, saying thank you and counting my blessings every night that I have the opportunity to be able to do this and to share it with others, who hopefully can take like one iota of what we are putting out there to the world and and, you know, putting it in, watching it resonate and amplify and

  Speaker 1  50:37

  well, let me

  Alexis Reid  50:37

  extend further. Let

  Gerald Reid  50:38

  me just take the opportunity to say how much we and obviously I respect what you've been able to do in the world as a woman. And I don't know if that's ever really said to you because of the way things operate, but it's incredible. And to Adam's point, I think we have learned about perspective, taking and empathy and understanding other people through the women in our lives, and certainly you and mom have, I probably wouldn't be the therapist I am without having you guys in my life. I wouldn't be able to know myself or to become who I am without you guys. So to Adam's point, like if we're talking about raising young men like, bring the woman into the room and allow men and women to have relationships. I was talking to someone in therapy, and she's like, you know, it seems like some guys just have no real friendships with women.

  Speaker 1  51:33

  It's almost

  Gerald Reid  51:33

  like they think it has to be romantic. I said, Oh yeah, that's the Harry Met Sally movie. That's what it's about. Is that like? And then the reality is, like, Why can't men and women have friendships? It's like, you know, half of the population, you can't be friends with them. Like, what are you really missing out on?

  Adam Lewis  51:50

  Do you think your experience? Yeah, and I echo that as well as I mean, it's that I've always seen you as a powerhouse. So it's, you know, I mean that with great affection and love, I'm

  Alexis Reid  52:00

  held up by the two of you, for sure

  Adam Lewis  52:01

  and so, but I can't even I can't pretend, whereas like someone going to, but I'm with Jerry like i in terms of the the impact of women on me and my understanding of self, the relationship with girls. I can't quite figure this out, because at one level, I find young men now almost freer and more comfortable. There seems to be a greater collective maturity in the way that young men talk about girls. I'm not pretending for one second that objectification, sexism doesn't exist. It's real,

  Gerald Reid  52:34

  yes, and it's

  Adam Lewis  52:35

  a big challenge in all boys schools, right? Like,

  Gerald Reid  52:39

  especially with the internet,

  Adam Lewis  52:40

  for sure,

  Gerald Reid  52:41

  super powerful

  Adam Lewis  52:42

  for sure. So it might look a bit different now, but I also, when I look at our young men, and the way there's a maturity, the way they talk about they seem to have more girls that are friends, actually. That's great. And it could be whatever a friend means, whatever that means. It feels different to me. And perhaps it's because it's in front of them more they still have to make sense of it, and I think that's where the difficulty thing, but I but I feel that there's certainly much more mature than I was at that age in terms of how they speak about girls and and girls are not romantically connected with like they will talk about girls with great affection as people Who are friends, right? Um, that gives me hope. It was really affirming to see your both of your responses when I said that. I believe that, in my case, boys want to have that they want to be good. They want depth like because I live in a little microcosm with with my crew, right? And we have a particular school I go, yeah, oh, do they really want that? And you both responded in a particular way to that, right? Can I ask more about that? Like that, that's your experience, right? They, they do want something more, don't they? Even though the world says something completely yeah, there's

  Gerald Reid  53:56

  no really bad night we're that's immediately Yes.

  Adam Lewis  53:59

  And the

  Alexis Reid  54:00

  coolest part is that oftentimes Jerry and I, we might share a patient, right? So Jerry will work on the mental health side of things, and I'll be more on the educational side. But they overlap in so many ways. You know, you talked about learning being emotional, and David Rose says it all the time, learning is teaching and learning are emotional, and that's where the work ignites.

  Adam Lewis  54:20

  Has to be, has

  Alexis Reid  54:21

  to be. But we see, yeah, of course, so, but we see this because, and it's fascinating, because oftentimes when Jerry and I collaborate, I'll hear just bits and pieces, because I actually don't want to know too much about the mental health side of things. I need to know enough to be mindful of the situation. But, you know, it's so fascinating when i i see the spark that comes online when they just kind of open up and be more vulnerable about their experiences, especially with school, that often shape and form them in a way that dictates the way in which they are confident, not only in academics, but other areas of their life, the way they might be embarrassed or shame. Full right? That shame cycle. We see it a lot in academics, but we don't always talk about it, especially for boys, because they push it down or their big behaviors often are the things that deflect from the difficulty that they're experiencing. And it's it's so fascinating because it almost feels and Jerry, and we've had this experience before, it almost feels like they've never even thought about some of the things that they end up revealing to us in our work together, or they never felt comfortable speaking about it with it, with a teacher, a mentor, a parent, a friend, because of the expectations that they think are on them of how they're supposed to show up, what they're they are and aren't able to say. And I this is, again, part of the podcast. How many times have I said, you know, young people get a bad rap.

  Speaker 1  55:49

  You

  Alexis Reid  55:49

  know, they desire, they crave real, true connection and authentic bonds with people who care about them. And I'm so glad you're using the word love, because especially in mental health and psychology. It's in education too. It's a term that doesn't get used, but almost every single person I've ever worked with, this is just something that I again, is another blessing I find unbelievable, but it's a testament to what we're saying here. At some point in my work with people, if I work with them for long enough, they'll they'll hang up, or they'll leave and be like, Okay, love you. And then they catch themselves, young people, and they're like, Oh, I'm sorry. And I'm like, What are you sorry for? I'm like, it,

  Gerald Reid  56:31

  but

  Alexis Reid  56:31

  it's coming

  Gerald Reid  56:32

  from their heart.

  Alexis Reid  56:32

  It's, it's something that, like, supposedly slips, but at the same time, like the work together, the relationships we form with these young people, it is based in love, right? We're showing them love so that they can start to love themselves, and then they can share that with others,

  Gerald Reid  56:48

  yeah,

  Alexis Reid  56:48

  and all of these things, you know, we don't talk about this. You know, I teach a lot of professional development, right? And I go into a school, and not one school I've ever worked with is like, our students need to know that they're loved. Can you help the teachers to be able to open up to get to that point?

  Adam Lewis  57:03

  We say that twice.

  Speaker 1  57:04

  Yeah, we say

  Adam Lewis  57:04

  that. I mean, it's beautiful beginning of the year, and you teach, what do you expect it was? I said, Love our boys.

  Gerald Reid  57:12

  I mean, so I'll say a quick story. So like the, I mean, they're, you know, graduate students. So they're like, early 20s, mid 20s, and had a really nice class that really bonded so well. And I just stopped in the middle of our conversation one class. I said, Hey guys, look guys and girls. Just like, just pause. What do you feel right now? Similar what you did with this student? I said, Look, this is as good as it gets in life. What you feel here, the bonding, the camaraderie, the connection, the authenticity. There's no defenses up. People are just caring about each other. This is as good as it gets. And by the way, you may not experience it when you move forward and you graduate and you're out of this class, but you better go recreate this somewhere else. And I feel like that's what you're trying to do with the students, is say, hey, feel it and then go be a leader. Because the truth is it, there's play. There's plenty of places where it's people won't even get close to experiencing that again. And you have to, I always say, with people with social anxiety, I'm like, hey, you know you're nervous about how people are going to treat you. Go be the way that you want to be treated and just be make that your your value, make that your mission is just treat people the way you want to be treated and, and that's it. But, um, you know,

  Adam Lewis  58:29

  explicate it, yeah? Like, I mean, because it's so foreign, like it's so counter to what the world is saying to them, yeah? I mean, it's funny. Like, when I talk to our boys about leadership, who do I hold up?

  Gerald Reid  58:41

  Yeah,

  Adam Lewis  58:42

  honestly, who in this sight line Can I hold up? You know? And so in those moments, exactly what you're saying there, like I did with that boy, like, like you did in that thing, we have to explicate, hey, that's the stuff. Yeah, that's the stuff. And

  Speaker 1  58:57

  pay

  Adam Lewis  58:57

  attention.

  Adam Lewis  58:58

  Yeah, I was at a retreat last night. Our boys are on what we call a Kairos retreat. It's a really beautiful experience. And the 15 boys up there, and I went up there last night for night prayers somewhere Medway or somewhere, I think it was, and I was there for two hours with them. And one of the boys was giving his witness about his own journey and his own faith, and he's very vulnerable, really beautiful kid and enormous courage like you talk about strength. He then the boys went and shared small groups. I didn't, I'm not on the retreat, so I didn't get into that space that's a sacred space with them. But then we did a night prayer, and it was so beautiful, and it was, it was 20 minutes, and one of our campus ministry director led his talk about a model a beautiful man like and he did that. And then there was a stillness and a gentleness in the space that that was so foreign to me, and therefore, I assume has to be foreign to them, because their world's busier than mine in terms of what's in front of them, busy is a good word. These kids are so busy. And. It. Afterwards, I said, like, said to the leaders, the seniors who are leading it, there's five of them, and they thanked me for going to the retreat, which I don't like when they do that, because they should expect that of me. And I said that

  Gerald Reid  1:00:12

  to

  Speaker 1  1:00:13

  them. I said, Boys, like, this is the stuff. This is it. And thank you. They agree. Like,

  Adam Lewis  1:00:24

  yeah, these

  Adam Lewis  1:00:25

  are wicked smart kids.

  Adam Lewis  1:00:27

  They are more self aware than I could ever dream of being at 18 years of age. These are boys who got everything going for it. They're good looking kids, they're athletic, they're smart, they're

  Gerald Reid  1:00:38

  going

  Adam Lewis  1:00:39

  to the great they're about to go to go to great colleges,

  Speaker 1  1:00:41

  yeah. And

  Adam Lewis  1:00:42

  above all, they got good hearts, right? They're exactly, they're the boys. These are the men we want, right?

  Gerald Reid  1:00:46

  Yeah.

  Adam Lewis  1:00:47

  But in that moment, and we had a conversation that was bigger than anything they'd ever done

  Gerald Reid  1:00:53

  amazing, when

  Adam Lewis  1:00:55

  I got my car and drove back, I couldn't stop thinking about it, and I'm going, how do I replicate that tomorrow when I go into the school for the boys, couldn't have failed more spectacularly, right? Can I do that in chemistry? I can't, bloody do this. I don't do it like but the thing is, at least I'm thinking about it right, and I'm always in that space.

  Speaker 1  1:01:12

  You

  Gerald Reid  1:01:12

  can't force it,

  Adam Lewis  1:01:12

  you can't force

  Gerald Reid  1:01:13

  it,

  Adam Lewis  1:01:13

  right? And boys has to be organic. And those boys, it wasn't lip service. They want meaning and fulfillment and something deeper, and they want to examine their hearts, and that's when they're most alive. That's when they're most alive.

  Gerald Reid  1:01:29

  The perfect way to put

  Speaker 1  1:01:30

  it.

  Adam Lewis  1:01:30

  Did you agree? I mean, I get the thrill of the 100% and here's the, you know, the college thing, the BC, or wherever they go, Georgetown, whatever it may be, right? That's ephemeral. This isn't like and and they want that.

  Gerald Reid  1:01:47

  Yeah, so

  Alexis Reid  1:01:48

  here's the thing I'm gonna like. I'm gonna magnify that for a minute, because for folks that are out there listening, you know, Adam works in a very specific context in the school that has a great emphasis on faith, yes,

  Adam Lewis  1:02:01

  right? And I'm going

  Alexis Reid  1:02:01

  to talk about that in a moment, but, but for anybody out there, we need to make more of those internal moments more external, like you just did,

  Adam Lewis  1:02:11

  yeah, that's, that's a great way, right? It's

  Alexis Reid  1:02:14

  almost like, as you were talking about it, in my mind, I have all these image like, images that come to mind when I have these conversations, and I literally imagined you taking a snapshot. And that feeling that existed in that moment became a photograph that became a part of the portfolios, the, you know, the photograph books of those boys lives,

  Adam Lewis  1:02:37

  yeah, which

  Alexis Reid  1:02:38

  is so cool. And for anybody who's out there. I'm just gonna emphasize this a little bit more, because that is such a special moment that I think we are so busy, whether you're a caregiver, a parent, an educator, we're moving so quickly that we miss those small moments. And people ask all the time. I'm sure you guys get these questions too. They're like, well, Alexis, how do we help to get kids to be engaged and motivated to do the work, to be better students, to be better people. And I'm like, That is the moment my new thing, Adam, you'll appreciate this. You can use this. I always say that our intervention is in our interactions,

  Gerald Reid  1:03:12

  and

  Alexis Reid  1:03:12

  when we could take that internal feeling and externalize it in a way that we can share it together

  Speaker 1  1:03:18

  and

  Alexis Reid  1:03:18

  it becomes imprinted on like, the story of our lives. I like, I want to, I want to take what you just said and put a frame around it and put it on the wall of every school, right? Yeah,

  Speaker 2  1:03:30

  that's

  Alexis Reid  1:03:30

  what we need.

  Adam Lewis  1:03:31

  Yeah, we got to capture it. And it speaks also. It's a cycle, right? Yeah, I'm, you've heard me say, I mean, beyond the interior work, but then the piece that's missing, that we have to do for our young people is explicate, that, like name that when it happens because, because they don't have those moments that there's so much in front of them, they don't actually have the time and space which they crave,

  Alexis Reid  1:03:50

  yes,

  Adam Lewis  1:03:51

  and they don't realize how much they crave it until they have it. So,

  Gerald Reid  1:03:55

  so, so we had the Marianne Wolf on the one of the leading experts in reading, the science of reading, and she referenced the philosopher who wrote a book and basically said, and I'm going to try to pull in the view the listeners here, you know, because I know that you're coming from a Catholic perspective, and the idea of Christ is important to this, like, kind things revolve around that, but I want to pull in everybody, even if they don't kind of follow that faith, right? That she said, you know, it is in these types of moments that we're referring to, in the stillness of these moments. She's like, those are the moments where you want to call it God, you want to call whatever the supernatural, that those are the moments where you feel that. And that's why I think this applies to everybody you know. And it's in those moments to cherish, and they happen and when you can really understand, and that's why I think therapy like that, like when you can feel and resonate and really understand someone on such a deep level, and they can sit with that and be comfortable with the fact that this is who you are at a core level, like you said, like all those other things, that's not who they are as a person. Person. Those are behaviors, those are habits. Those are, you know, externally validated aspects of a person, but to feel seen for yourself,

  Speaker 1  1:05:10

  we had a

  Gerald Reid  1:05:10

  whole episode on athlete mental health. And I really emphasize this is that it's a fragile thing to base your entire identity on external validation for something specific, like being a great athlete. And the problem is that a lot of times people come to work with me or someone else when there's when that gets shattered, not before. But

  Speaker 1  1:05:33

  can you

  Adam Lewis  1:05:34

  blind them during this world?

  Gerald Reid  1:05:35

  Cannot, and that's why what you're saying and what we're all talking about is so important, is to try to infuse these ideas along the journey, along the way, which is very by the way, it's not easy to do. We all emphasize in this. We're not saying it's easy, but aren't most things that are amazing in life worth hard work? And that's why, you know, you know people say, oh, what we're talking about is going to make men soft. Actually, this is harder. This is the opposite of being soft. Doing something hard like this

  Adam Lewis  1:06:04

  makes them stronger, stronger and but, but the other thing is that the it's also easy say we can't do it, but they're hungry for it and and it's harder because of the world that exists around them,

  Speaker 1  1:06:16

  yeah,

  Adam Lewis  1:06:16

  but they're hungrier for it than we were. And that's that is serious, and you're talking about something deeper. As you said, in our place, we use the language of Christ. But I don't talk about Christ with the boys as some abstract thing. When I say our standards Christ, it's the person of Christ and the model and the values. And I will literally say to them, boys, I see the face of Christ in you, and Christ exists in the space between us. I believe that you're responsible. You have to become men who draw me into that sacred space, as I have to do that for you. And if you spend your life drawing drawing others into the sacred space that exists between people,

  Speaker 1  1:06:57

  only

  Adam Lewis  1:06:58

  your heart can do that. And so whatever language you want to put around it, I just happen to use the language I know and believe in

  Gerald Reid  1:07:05

  exactly, but

  Adam Lewis  1:07:06

  it's exactly what you're talking about is something deeper. It is something more, and it is about acknowledging, accepting and celebrating

  Speaker 1  1:07:16

  the

  Adam Lewis  1:07:16

  fact that our young people want that. And I believe that with my whole heart and and so it is hard, but as I said, like you're literally doing having conversation. This is your work, and even though it's hard, we're having the conversation like we are having conversations, in my case, with young men that I never dreamt I'd be having. Honestly,

  Gerald Reid  1:07:40

  yeah, is

  Adam Lewis  1:07:42

  it hard? Absolutely, it's

  Gerald Reid  1:07:43

  hard because it's uncertain.

  Adam Lewis  1:07:45

  It's uncertain,

  Gerald Reid  1:07:46

  yeah,

  Adam Lewis  1:07:46

  and but that's good as well, because what in life is yeah, you know, like and so, but getting to understand that, appreciate and love themselves through it, and not have all the answers, despite the fact the world says you have to have them

  Gerald Reid  1:08:00

  exactly

  Adam Lewis  1:08:00

  like we have to be the counterpoint for them. And it doesn't. Some people think if you do that, you're compromising on standards. Nope, you're raising them. And that's that's the

  Gerald Reid  1:08:11

  one more time.

  Adam Lewis  1:08:13

  Well, I think that in the uncertainty, getting them to live with the uncertainty and love themselves through the unset uncertainty, some people think that's compromising. I think it's elevating it.

  Gerald Reid  1:08:23

  Let me just does

  Adam Lewis  1:08:23

  that make sense?

  Gerald Reid  1:08:24

  What you said makes so much sense, so much so that some people in our field would suggest that's actually going to make people mentally healthier,

  Adam Lewis  1:08:32

  of course,

  Gerald Reid  1:08:33

  because mental health issues tend to revolve around rigidity and revolve around fragility, of needing certainty in everything which could become controlling, which could become not liking yourself, which could become controlling other people. You know, it comes all these things, right? So this all revolves around something deeper than you know, just like changing someone, we're not about changing

  Adam Lewis  1:08:54

  something, of course. And Jerry help me with this, because I have boys in our school who are hurting badly in terms of mental health. I mean, I lose sleep every night over them, and I would say in 90% of those cases, it is an incapacity to deal with uncertainty, a desire to have clarity and certainty at a time when it's never gonna happen, and that's okay, but they don't. They can't accept that,

  Gerald Reid  1:09:24

  or feel that,

  Adam Lewis  1:09:25

  or feel it right, or feel

  Gerald Reid  1:09:28

  safe,

  Adam Lewis  1:09:29

  safe. Yeah, it's heartbreaking. And because they're beautiful kids like and in a lot of cases like, they've got extraordinary gifts, they're talented, their capacity for love. They got everything going for

  Gerald Reid  1:09:44

  them. It's real.

  Speaker 1  1:09:45

  Oh, my God, nobody

  Gerald Reid  1:09:46

  can see it.

  Adam Lewis  1:09:47

  It is the worst.

  Alexis Reid  1:09:48

  So hard

  Adam Lewis  1:09:50

  in my role. Like I never thought there'd be anything worse than kicking a kid out of a school. Like I remember the first kid I had to remove from school in 2010 Man in Sydney who I'm still in contact with now I still wake up over that. It destroyed me, but it was the right thing for him, actually, and he's fine, but I'm not. This is worse not being able to help a young man in my case, who I look at and think this kid has all the gifts in the world, who is experiencing an internal torment and anguish that I can't make sense of at a cognitive level, but I feel acutely through him and not being able to help. Jerry. I mean, Lex, this is what you do. I couldn't do it like I couldn't do what you do, because the boys who hurt like that, I can walk beside and get them help, and I'll always have, like, it's their school, I'm there for them. But even, like, when it's getting to that acute point

  Speaker 2  1:10:50

  that,

  Adam Lewis  1:10:51

  like, I'm not overstating it, when I say that breaks my heart. And God, they hurt, and it's so hard, because when we talk about the way they internalize things, and they they get to that point where they don't have permission

  Speaker 1  1:11:08

  to words.

  Adam Lewis  1:11:09

  It's not even just saying words, like permission to even to say that it's okay, like, internally, like, let alone explicating it, right?

  Gerald Reid  1:11:15

  They can't. And then it just seems like it they get in, like, I'm asking for help, I guess, from both of you, like, they seem, so I can help my my kids, right? Like it seems, in they get in this, this perpetuating cycle where the more they think about the more they hurt themselves. Like what you just said is really important. So you said, the more they think about it, the worse they feel. And the reason for that, in my experience, is because sometimes, when you continuously ruminate and obsess over something that's bothering you you're not actually feeling it. It's a way to avoid what you're feeling. Right? To be able to feel what you're feeling requires a tremendous amount of acceptance and safety to pay okay? I feel terribly sad. I feel terribly upset. I feel afraid of this. In order to work through those emotions, you have to first be able to accept it, which is vulnerability. And I think you do an incredible job of giving people permission to feel that, because without accepting it, you're going to try to control it. And sometimes controlling it is fine, right? Sometimes you want to push through. Sometimes, as an athlete, you want to kind of move beyond the butterflies and kind of keep working hard, right? That's I'm not saying don't do that, but when you have real pain and real struggles emotionally, the first step is to accept it and go into it and feel like you have someone around you to help you to do that.

  Alexis Reid  1:12:36

  I think that's the key. There's two things I want to say. I want to touch upon that, because I think for boys especially, we minimize the struggle, or when they can't articulate what they're feeling, that they feel like they need to push it down further, because oftentimes adults in their lives are afraid to open that box,

  Gerald Reid  1:12:56

  yes,

  Alexis Reid  1:12:57

  because they're afraid of seeing what actually is underneath, and the boys can't say it yet, so I think

  Gerald Reid  1:13:03

  language for it,

  Alexis Reid  1:13:04

  right? And I think a lot of the manifestation of some of these mental health challenges that especially boys are dealing with is that a lot of adults in their worlds are afraid to even broach that because they're not sure how to receive, hold and respond to it,

  Gerald Reid  1:13:17

  or even to understand why it's happening. Some of my job is to be like, hey, like, I'm going to help you to understand why you feel this way. Just understanding it is incredibly grounding,

  Alexis Reid  1:13:27

  totally

  Gerald Reid  1:13:27

  right. But if you can't accept it and talk about it, then you're never going to get to the point of understanding where it's coming

  Alexis Reid  1:13:33

  from. So Adam, as you were talking about the spiritual side of things, there's two quick things I want to mention, and we can extrapolate this for hours, but I hope that we can use this,

  Adam Lewis  1:13:43

  join me to be 16 clicks.

  Speaker 1  1:13:44

  That's

  Adam Lewis  1:13:46

  what I'm hearing.

  Alexis Reid  1:13:46

  Yep, that's what we're going for, because she's

  Adam Lewis  1:13:48

  being beautifully direct.

  Alexis Reid  1:13:49

  We're gonna, we're gonna do this together.

  Adam Lewis  1:13:51

  We are,

  Alexis Reid  1:13:52

  we are all, especially you and I, are very long winded, and we can have a lot of really conversations we love. Yeah, of course, of course. So I'm going to use this as a way for us to kind of pull out a couple key themes that I think anybody can walk away

  Adam Lewis  1:14:08

  sure

  Alexis Reid  1:14:09

  from this conversation, from this episode with that that interact with boys or young men,

  Adam Lewis  1:14:14

  yes.

  Alexis Reid  1:14:15

  So you mentioned the spirituality and the faith side of things, and I think this is so important. I have this foundation that I share with the people I work with that. You know, when we're talking about executive functions, they're like, Well, what do I have to do? What's a strategy or tool and like, it's not often about that that helps gives us structure and allows for us to activate some of these skills. But really, beyond that, we have a set of a couple different foundational components. I won't go into all of them, but one of them, but one of them is actually faith. And oftentimes when I say the word faith to them, they kind of like get uncomfortable. Some of them are very open about their faith, and they'll share and we'll talk about what it means to them, because it's a part of building motivation and drive and persistence in them too.

  Speaker 1  1:14:59

  But.

  Alexis Reid  1:15:00

  When I say faith, you know, I talk about it not as a religious aspect. I said, for some people, it can be religious, it can be spirit, it can be something outside of ourselves,

  Speaker 1  1:15:09

  ritual,

  Alexis Reid  1:15:10

  right? I said, but faith is really about building faith in ourselves, faith in each other, the people that guide us, the people that support us, the systems that surround us. And you and you and I come from, you know, developmental psychology, thinking about Braun from Brenner. And I don't know if I've even told you this, but I had the great privilege of having a few conversations with Dr Jerome Kagan,

  Adam Lewis  1:15:29

  yeah,

  Alexis Reid  1:15:30

  before he passed. My god,

  Adam Lewis  1:15:31

  he's your

  Alexis Reid  1:15:31

  man. Yeah, he's a

  Adam Lewis  1:15:32

  temperament guy. He's pretty awesome, though

  Alexis Reid  1:15:35

  he was amazing.

  Adam Lewis  1:15:35

  My god, he's a legend.

  Alexis Reid  1:15:36

  But I had a similar interaction, right? Because at the time, I was working for psychological firm that had a lot of really cute cases were often coming off of inpatient or partial programs, and they were reintegrating in school, and I worked with them in a very vulnerable place to help them re acclimate to the world outside of a hospital. And I looked at him and I said, you know, I said, Dr Kagan, I said, you sharing your perspective over the years of what you found in your work. I'm seeing today that there are so many young people really struggling. They feel so hurt as you were talking about they feel like they have no hope, they have no sense of self, and they feel like anything they do just doesn't matter anymore. So why do why are we seeing more of this now than ever? And he said something that was so profound, and I'm not going to say it as eloquently as he did, and I'm not going to extrapolate from there, but, you know, he said, he said, Alexis, there's, there's a lack of trust, and there's a lack of faith, right? If people are looking to the media, they're losing faith in politics and political figures. They're losing faith in leaders. They're losing faith in their their parents, who they don't often see because they're working so hard just to keep up and keep the family system going. And they're losing faith in the people around them. How are they supposed to have faith in themselves? And you know, it's it's we can go into this for hours and forever, but I think it's a really important thing to remember that regardless of what you do, especially when we're shaping boys and men, we want to help them to gain a sense of faith and what you're doing, the way you describe your interactions with the boys you work with, the boys you're raising at home, the friendships that you cultivate and you hold on to for your life, you know that is about building faith and Trust, and ultimately, when we talk about education or athletics or the workforce or any aspect of life, that's the core of almost all of it. So as we are kind of wrapping up here together, I think what I shared kind of like puts a bow and ties everything we've been talking about together, and I we're not a big fan of you know, here are three things that you can do that can help to, you know, raise boys and men better. But you know, if you were to share, you know, if you were to think about the boys that you work with, what are some of the things you want them to leave school having learned about themselves or about the world or what's possible?

  Adam Lewis  1:17:59

  Yeah, I believe that if our boys leave as men who have enormous capacity for love, that have a unshakable clarity and conviction in their heart and a real I guess I get emotional because it means so much. But the question you ask me is the very thing I spend my days thinking about, and if they have a deep, deep commitment to make their world better through how they relate and how they love and how present they are to others, then I think we've done our job, and that will look different for each of them. But if those things underpin who they are and how they live, then I'd be very proud. And you know, we're at the process in the press of trying to point a new principal at our place. You know, it's a very important position in the school. And I spoke to many boys about what they want in their

  Speaker 1  1:18:51

  principal.

  Adam Lewis  1:18:53

  Not one of them said, We want a great athletic program. Not one of them said We want someone who's going to lead a fantastic curriculum program of pedagogy and teaching and learning, the one thing that came through his presence and knowing us,

  Speaker 1  1:19:09

  oh, wow,

  Gerald Reid  1:19:10

  that's remarkable. So telling

  Alexis Reid  1:19:14

  it's beautiful.

  Adam Lewis  1:19:15

  They said it in their own way, but they all said it, and it didn't matter if they were 13, it didn't matter if they were 18 or 15 or 14, that's what they want. And if they become men who are present and authentic and know people by how they love them,

  Gerald Reid  1:19:34

  yeah,

  Adam Lewis  1:19:35

  then like, that's

  Alexis Reid  1:19:36

  the more can we ask for?

  Adam Lewis  1:19:37

  Yeah. And I firmly believe that the rest of the other stuff that is important at one level colleges,

  Gerald Reid  1:19:46

  it

  Adam Lewis  1:19:48

  won't only come naturally. If you don't get the that part right first, it won't come at all. It might happen, but it won't be the experience that will form them because they don't have the heart for. Right? And I know

  Speaker 1  1:20:01

  that's

  Gerald Reid  1:20:01

  the it's

  Adam Lewis  1:20:01

  abstract, but it doesn't feel abstract when I say it.

  Gerald Reid  1:20:04

  I'm so, so grateful for you saying that in our field. And I supervise students who, you know, they have internships, and they work at these prestigious universities, and they see it. I see it. My practice, Lexus sees it you know, like you're doing an incredible service, because you are so right that you can get everything you want, but if your heart's not in it, it will not be what you expect. And everybody has expectations about every little thing nowadays, life revolves around expectations, so much so that you are extraordinarily accurate in saying you can have all these expectations, and you can get to where you think you want to be, but if your heart's on it, it will not be what you expected.

  Speaker 1  1:20:54

  But

  Adam Lewis  1:20:55

  Jerry, I mean, just take me 50 years to realize

  Adam Lewis  1:20:58

  but that's the reason I can realize it. I don't want that for

  Speaker 1  1:21:02

  these

  Gerald Reid  1:21:02

  boys you're paying. I

  Adam Lewis  1:21:05

  grew up without that capacity to love, and I came from a loving family,

  Gerald Reid  1:21:10

  yeah,

  Speaker 1  1:21:10

  because as a man,

  Gerald Reid  1:21:12

  as a system, we're

  Adam Lewis  1:21:14

  gonna break that down for them.

  Speaker 1  1:21:15

  I love that. We're

  Adam Lewis  1:21:16

  gonna give them that permission, that they that they crave, right? And we may not get there in our time, but I can tell you that the young men we work with, they will for the ones that follow, right? And I think that that's a very serious responsibility we all have.

  Speaker 1  1:21:29

  And

  Adam Lewis  1:21:31

  Lex, you know how strongly I feel about you and the role of women in it, it's not men can't do it. We'll try. We

  Alexis Reid  1:21:39

  could do it together,

  Speaker 1  1:21:40

  yep,

  Alexis Reid  1:21:40

  and I just want to just share one more point of gratitude for a lot of these conversations are about what men are doing wrong, and I just, I love and appreciate how we focused on what we could do well, right? How we can cultivate more of this, because there's a lot of work to be done, and we hope that there's more who can join us in this journey, yeah.

  Adam Lewis  1:22:01

  And we can be beautiful,

  Alexis Reid  1:22:02

  yeah. I mean,

  Speaker 1  1:22:03

  you

  Adam Lewis  1:22:03

  feel how much we love you,

  Alexis Reid  1:22:04

  yeah, right.

  Adam Lewis  1:22:05

  I mean,

  Alexis Reid  1:22:05

  yeah,

  Adam Lewis  1:22:06

  we can do it.

  Alexis Reid  1:22:07

  Yeah,

  Adam Lewis  1:22:07

  we can do it.

  Gerald Reid  1:22:08

  Alexis was saying the other day to someone we were chatting with. She's like, you know, like, you know, Jerry and I, we try to be really we just are authentic with people. And sometimes it's almost like some people don't know what to do

  Adam Lewis  1:22:21

  with it. What do you do with it? I mean,

  Gerald Reid  1:22:23

  so far experience

  Speaker 1  1:22:24

  it,

  Gerald Reid  1:22:24

  yeah, yeah, they have to get it's like people are not used to it. It's

  Speaker 1  1:22:27

  crushing,

  Alexis Reid  1:22:28

  yeah, well, more work to be done. Grateful for you both. Thank you for the conversation and thank you for joining us. Adam, we're so grateful to

  Adam Lewis  1:22:35

  you. No, I'm grateful you too. Thank you

  Alexis Reid  1:22:37

  be well.

  Gerald Reid

  
  Thanks for tuning in to the Reid Connect-ED podcast. Please remember that this is a podcast intended to educate and share ideas, but it is not a substitute for professional care that may be beneficial to you at different points of your life. If you are needed support, please contact your primary care physician, local hospital, educational institution, or support staff at your place of employment to seek out referrals for what may be most helpful for you. ideas shared here have been shaped by many years of training, incredible mentors research theory, evidence based practices and our work with individuals over the years, but it's not intended to represent the opinions of those we work with or who we are affiliated with. The reconnected podcast is hosted by siblings Alexis Reid and Dr. Gerald Reid. Original music is written and recorded by Gerald Reid (www.Jerapy.com) recording was done by Cyber Sound Studios. If you want to follow along on this journey with us the Reid Connect-ED podcast. we'll be releasing new episodes every two weeks each season so please subscribe for updates and notifications. Feel free to also follow us on Instagram @ReidConnectEdPodcast that's @ReidconnectEdPodcast and Twitter @ReidconnectEd. We are grateful for you joining us and look forward future episodes. In the meanwhile be curious, be open, and be well.

S8 E3: Supporting Adolescent Boys w/Adam Lewis, M.A.

In this episode Alexis & Jerry meet with Adam Lewis, M.A. - head of school at Catholic Memorial High School in Boston, MA - to discuss the current landscape of raising boys to men. We have an in depth and thoughtful dialogue about the pressures that adolescent boys feel these days. We consider ways of engaging with boys to address their vulnerabilities from a place of respect, genuine care, and perspective-taking as a way to break down the barriers. The important and significant role of women in the lives of boys is also explored and acknowledged. There are so many important messages within this episode that we hope are insightful and inspiring. 

Summary: 

• The ways that boys may experience and manifest mental & emotional challenges

• How to engage with boys to facilitate honest conversations

• Societal and environmental pressures for boys

• The importance of women in the lives of boys

Be curious. Be Open. Be well.

The Reid Connect-Ed Podcast is hosted by Siblings, educational therapist, Alexis Reid, M.A. and licensed psychologist, Dr. Gerald Reid, produced by CyberSound Recording Studios, and original music is written and recorded by www.Jerapy.com

*Please note that different practitioners may have different opinions- this is our perspective and is intended to educate you on what may be possible.