S8 E8: Music Therapy w/Dr. Joy Allen from Berklee College of Music
Listen Now!
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Joy Allen, PhD, MT-BC is an active clinician, researcher, and educator with extensive experience in psychological health, medical music therapy, and trauma informed education and supervision. She is a sought-after consultant with community and higher education leaders on music therapy and music and health program and curriculum development, including training programs in music and health, targeting musicians, healthcare workers, and community members looking to develop beginning knowledge and skills in research, program development, community engagement, and/or entrepreneurship within the music and health landscape. She has presented on her work at several peer-reviewed conferences, including regional, national and international music therapy and music and health related conferences. In addition to serving as Chair, Music Therapy, Dr. Allen is the Founding Director, Music & Health Institute, Berklee College of Music, where she curates’ programs and trainings; maintains a repository of music and health related research, and designed a one-of-a-kind Music & Health Innovation Studio to incubate and accelerate the development of music informed, solution-focused resources for a wide range of healthcare challenges impacting our global communities.
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Music is woven into the fabric of so much of our lives.
There are not just differences in one’s taste in musical artists or genres; the differences vary across how music is created, performed, witnessed, heard, experienced, felt, and so forth.
Music evokes moods, perspectives, memories, inspiration, validation, and so much more.
Music starts with our heartbeats right when we are in the womb. Music grounds and connects people together. Rhythms are everywhere in nature.
Music aspects every part of our brain and it is also always there as a companion in our lives.
Joy shares as a child her family moved a lot and yet music was always there as a constant in her life. It also was the conduit for connecting with new people in her new environments. It was a constant; a transitional object wherever you go.
Feeling lonely, one can feel connected through a song.
Working in oncology or during breakups and challenges in life, there can be a theme song the person can identify to help them get through and find a sense of purpose.
Humming can even be a self-regulatory and grounding exercise that may be underestimated. The vibrations and the connection to one’s physical body can be grounding and self-regulating.
Music therapists go ‘back to the basics’ - like how you learn about one’s world as an infant - through sound; how you had a sense of security - through a caregiver’s voice; how you learned academic content - through songs. As people get older, they can lose their connection with music for the sake of what it can do for you in your life aside from trying to impress or win awards.
When you dance and experience music, you can let go of being self-conscious and just be in the moment. It also requires us to breathe and be in our bodies.
Alexis shares using the ‘30 second dance party’ toy as a way to get a beat and get out of her clients’ heads and let loose.
Joy asks, “What do you need from the music?” It could be affirmation, connection, physical release, focus, to feel calmer, etc. The question is important. It is just like in traditional therapy, to ask and inquire about what the person needs and the meaning of their experiences. Simply asking helps the person to self-reflect on what their needs are, which is a skill in itself to develop.
Even sharing songs can be a strong sense of connection and memories with others.
Joy worked as a music therapist for adolescents and then worked in music therapy program development in medical settings. She found how significantly pain could decrease using music therapy. It created a sense of agency and also led to quicker discharging. She found that evidence does not lead to adoption in the field and so she wanted to make an impact on making sure the evidence led to changes in the field to utilize music therapy and also train the future generation of music therapists.
Songwriting, music imagery, and improvising and co-creating with individuals are some of the tools used by music therapists.
Berklee has the biggest music therapy program in the country. The students are musicians by training but they gain the therapeutic psychology, physiology and human anatomy, music core, and core music therapy. They learn how to adapt the music therapy techniques to the needs and context of the person.
Many times a person struggles to express how they are feeling. A simple question is - where are you right now in this song? By asking what the person is experiencing in a song helps the music therapist to build perspective and have empathy to step into the shoes of the person.
Music therapy has some of its roots in helping veterans’ pain to feel safer and not alone during the battlefield. State mental health facilities (which are not around as much anymore) would create a sense of belonging using music as leisure time. No matter how severe, chronic, and persistent the mental health issues, music helps people to regulate. Rhythm is a calming force. Melody is an analogy for voice and identity. Harmony is about your relationship with others.
Music and rhythm can be attached to physical therapy to make it more engaging and interesting.
Finding a way to describe the sounds of one’s neighborhood could even be a way of putting to words one’s everyday experience that may not even be acknowledged or consciously perceived. It can also help the person to find a way to create their own sounds and music to have more of a sense of control during different times of the day.
Individuals especially in this mental health crisis can be so detached from their bodies that music and live music can collectively help individuals come back to being in touch with their bodies and less ‘in their heads’ and so focused on task/goal-oriented. It can help feel grounded and it can be all-natural.
Individuals can re-claim parts of themselves with music even if they lost touch with it since being a child even if they were simply in a music class.
Individuals with dementia can actually still play music. Music lights up almost every part of the brain. Music helps you find another way around the affected parts of the brain due to neuroplasticity.
There can be fewer spaces these days compared to the past to simply get together and be in community to play music together. There can be too much of a sense of competition and professionalism attached to it that gets in the way of more people engaging with music together.
Learning an instrument is very healthy for the aging process even if you never played an instrument before.
It can be very difficult to express what one is feeling. There may not be a full language to describe the nuances of the emotions and feelings.
Giving people choice in creating music can be very empowering especially when the person lacks empowerment and autonomy in their life or circumstances.
Putting words into lyrics can be crafted in a way that creates separation and externalization of one’s experience in a vulnerable way that feels safe enough to share the experience. It is important to meet the client where they are at and not push them beyond where/how they are able to be vulnerable, while also encouraging them to find a way that works for them to express themselves. Healing comes from within so the person can be presented the tools in different ways to take what they need at whatever stage or phase they are in to be vulnerable.
Experience, reflect, transform is the simple therapeutic process.
With all the advances in technology and ‘greatness’ it is important to simply feel your way through aspects of life. Even if you take a few moments (e.g., “Take five” from jazz musician David Brubeck) or time of your day or week to use music to feel, it can be healthy.
You do not have to experience the same thing the artist did when they wrote the song. You can experience the song in a way that connects to you.
Creating music is like therapy where you slow things down to have a calm, slowed down space to reflect openly and tap into what you are feeling and experiencing. It takes time and it’s a process but it’s a sacred and valuable process and context to create for someone. Songwriting can be an exercise cognitively, spiritually, socially, emotionally, or physically. There are so many different ways to experience songwriting.
Music can be used therapeutically by a mental health therapist. At the same time, music therapists are specifically trained in how to understand and utilize and apply music therapy skills and techniques. It is a board certified profession. It requires assessment, treatment plan, and implementation of an intervention.
Music therapists can work in medical settings, like Boston Children’s Hospital and Dana Farber, clinics for neurodivergent individuals, pain management clinics, hospices, nursing homes, community based settings, eating disorder clinics, addiction clinics, etc. The techniques are the same but they are applied in different ways.
There is a large demand for more music therapists. There is a plethora of evidence for use of music therapy that can be used in a clinical setting.
Music and health institute has a large research repository based on different types of conditions
Music therapists work with premature babies. Regulation and feeding is a major issue. Rhythm helps to create that response. The parent can also have anxiety for which music can help. Tempo slower to the natural heartbeat can be important. For neonates, large leaps in the melody lines can be overstimulating and are avoided. How the elements of music are used is important.
The music that helps one focus the most is actually game scores. It’s consistent but has enough minor shifts to maintain and modulate attention. Certain types of jazz can also help with focus. It’s not necessarily the type of music but more how the elements of the music are being used.
“The music never stopped” is a movie about a case study related to the use of music therapy for someone with a brain injury.
Music can be multifaceted as in it can do a lot of different things for someone, not just one thing.
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Alexis Reid 00:16
Welcome back to the Reid Connect-ED podcast, co-hosted by myself, educational therapist Alexis Reid and my brother, licensed psychologist Dr. Gerald Reid, we're providing you with expert and nuanced discussions on topics relevant to mental health, education, and sport and performance psychology.
Gerald Reid 00:33
Today's topic is about the therapeutic qualities of music, otherwise known as music therapy. Before we introduce our amazing guest, Dr. Joy Allen, the director of the music therapy program at Berkeley College of Music, I want to invite you, the listener, to think about the experiences you have had with music in your personal life. Music is woven into the fabric of so much of our lives. So, in which ways have you experienced music in your life? There is such a wide spectrum of experiences, ranging from seeing a local band play cover songs at a local bar or restaurant, all the way to seeing your favorite artist at a large-scale venue, like how we just got to see one of my all-time favorites, Munford and Sons, play at Fenway Park. What about your grade school's music class introducing you to an instrument like the recorder? Does anyone play the recorder still? And all the way to learning how to play your favorite song on a chosen instrument, or even writing and performing your own original music. And not to mention our good friend DJ Ryan Brown, who's in the Boston area, who really brings a sense of community with his DJing around the area.
Alexis Reid 01:40
For sure,
Gerald Reid 01:40
it's just amazing to think about how it's not just the differences in your taste in musical genres or musicians that varies between person to person. No, it's really that music can be experienced, created, performed, shared, and felt in just so many ways. This is what makes music so incredibly special. A few years ago, when I first started using social media, 2023, I made a post on Instagram inviting the reflection. Imagine a life without music. Now, think about that for just a moment. What would your life be like without music? No music. It's actually hard to imagine because music, as I mentioned, is woven into the fabric of so much of our lives, it evokes memories, moods, ideas, perspectives, inspiration. It even validates us, but it does so much more. So this leads us right into the topic of today's interview: How do we harness the incredibly powerful experience of music in a way that is therapeutic for individuals.
Alexis Reid 02:45
Now, our guest today, Joy Allen, PhD, MTVC, is an active clinician, researcher, and educator with extensive experience in psychological health, medical musical therapy, and trauma-informed education and supervision. She's sought after consultant with community and higher education leaders on music therapy and music and health program and curriculum development, including training programs in music and health, targeting musicians, healthcare workers, and community members looking to develop beginning knowledge and skills in research, program development, community engagement, and entrepreneurship with the music and health landscape. She has presented on her work at several peer-reviewed conferences, including regional, national, and international music therapy and music and health-related conferences. In addition to serving as the chair of music therapy, Dr. Ellen is the founding director of the Musik and Health Institute at Berkeley College of Music, where she curates programs and trainings, maintains a repository of music and health-related research, and designed a one-of-a-kind musik and health innovation studio to incubate and accelerate the development of music-informed, solution-focused resources for a wide range of healthcare challenges impacting our global communities. Now, as you know, these are two of our favorite topics: mental health and music. So we are so grateful to have you here today. Thanks for joining us.
Dr. Joy Allen 04:14
Thank you, and thank you, Jerry, for that amazing reminder of how we are all musical beings, and not only is it weaved into the very fabric of our our stories and our lives, but it starts with our heartbeat. It's the rhythm of our existence, and if we think about our heartbeat, we know when the rhythm's off, there's something wrong. But we also know that music can help find us that connection, that grounding that we need to. So thank you.
Gerald Reid 04:46
Wow, the parallels between the beating heart and music-what an amazing parallel. Never thought about that.
Dr. Joy Allen 04:52
Yeah, and same thing. You know, even with the beating heart, you know, if you look at if you're in the hospital machines, the ups and downs-that's our life. The rhythm is there, and we can use that. Yeah, everything sounds beautiful.
Gerald Reid 05:04
Nature too,
Dr. Joy Allen 05:05
absolutely.
Alexis Reid 05:06
And it starts in the womb, right? It does. It absolutely does. At the very beginning of our lives, it's so difficult. It
Dr. Joy Allen 05:11
does, and you know whether it's in sometimes it's more in the foreground versus the background, but it's there. It's the one thing that not only impacts every single part of our central nervous system, every part of our brain, but it's always there, right? It's just there as a companion in our lives. Again, nature. If you listen to birds, that sound it's music. But yeah, I love this. I love this.
Gerald Reid 05:37
I'm so excited for today. I want to just give you the opportunity to introduce, you know, yourself in terms of how you got into music therapy. Like, what is your path that led you to this direction? That maybe some people listening have never even heard of music therapy, or maybe tangentially they've heard of it, but they don't really know what it is or what it means. So, yeah, please.
Dr. Joy Allen 05:58
So, I think anyone who gets into spaces, I really didn't know what music therapy was, right? But as a kid, my family moved all all the time. Every year we were moving, sometimes twice a year. So imagine as a kid, it's new communities, new spaces, and some of the memories I remember, earliest memories being a three-year-old and listening to songs in church and feeling connected, even though my grandmother wasn't there, right? And always singing, even though that was just what you did, and listening to my grandma play the piano and the organ, and and by the way, she was a horrible singer. But it didn't matter because it was didn't matter if she was off pitch, but it was that connection being in with her, right? But moving all around, I remember third grade recorder Jerry, just for you, and being so proud of that recorder, and thankfully they use more ukuleles and guitars nowadays. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But fourth grade, I wanted to play an instrument, and I chose the clarinet, and I sucked. I thought I was getting sound out of it, but really, what I was doing was humming. So for three months, I was humming everything, not actually playing the instrument like I thought. Yeah. And I remember my dad saying, like, maybe, and I was like, no, because there was one thing about me. I'm I don't take no for an answer. I'm always like, what's the point and why? So I just sat there and practice because I didn't know anyone. I had nothing to do. I was a latchkey kid. We weren't allowed out of the house, but I had this instrument. So I started playing, and I remember my music teacher being like, "Are you really practicing? Like, who practices? And I was like, "It it was something that was mine. It was something that I could take with. It was a constant in your life with all the changes. Yeah, and so you know when you're moving all the time and you go to a new school, the one thing that you have is band and choir. It's always a community, right? And so, and the people
Gerald Reid 08:12
could be different, but the music's this thing. Yeah,
Dr. Joy Allen 08:14
it was the one thing, and I could go to band, and there was immediately people there that I was sitting next to that you were going to have a conversation with versus trying to find your people. You had your people, and so I played. And then you know, honestly, one of my first dreams was to be the first female clarinetist of the Philadelphia Orchestra. Oh
Speaker 2 08:36
wow!
Dr. Joy Allen 08:36
And realized that I didn't really enjoy performance. It's very subjective. It took away the joy of what music provided me. It took away the comfort, the solace, the angst, all of that. And I didn't know what I wanted to do, but I knew I wanted to do something with people. And I happened to be at this community college library and saw this book on music therapy and I was like, I have no idea what that
Gerald Reid 09:08
is. Just randomly,
Dr. Joy Allen 09:09
randomly. I kid you not, the most random book in a Reading Community College outside of Pennsylvania. Oh
Alexis Reid 09:15
wow!
Dr. Joy Allen 09:16
And I was there because my mom was trying to get her associate's degree, and I was at the library, and I was like, "This is random, and even more random. A person's name on it was from New Orleans, and I knew my dad was going to be going to New Orleans, and he he took me, and I went to Loyola University and to see it, and met this incredible human, Darlene Brooks, and I was like, I don't know what music therapy is, I don't know what I'm going to do, but I'm want to come here.
Gerald Reid 09:49
Wow!
Dr. Joy Allen 09:50
And I got a scholarship to study, and just
Gerald Reid 09:54
felt right to you.
Dr. Joy Allen 09:55
It's it, and even after I graduated, I have to be honest, I went back and forth between. And we're still not really sure. Like I worked, you know, at the time there weren't, and still to this day, there's not a lot of music therapists in New Orleans. But I remember her telling me, like, you go into a space and you meet them where they are, and your one thing that you have is music, and so you go and you help them find their music if they need to find their music, you ask them about their music. You share and you help them find what's healthy and whole. You always have music, so no matter what you don't know what you're doing, and I didn't know what I was doing. You do that, and even after I graduated, I was going back and forth between: Do I want to go into clinical psychology? I thought long and hard about med school, and it all came back to I wanted to prescribe music, and I was like, "Well, that's not really a good reason to go to med school. Like that's a really hard. But it came back down to I could just what you see. I mean, we hear about all the time, and you have everyone has their moment, whether it's their breakup song, whether it's their first song that they sang to a child, or it was that I still to this day the girls and I sometimes leave voice messages of songs we sang together on the way to school. But you have those moments, and when you are able to say like, yeah, music is there, but then you see it in action. Like when you go to a concert, when you at Rumford and Sons, you can't capture that, but that experience helps you in your own well being and wholeness and reconnecting with parts of self. So that was a long ramble, but yeah,
Alexis Reid 11:43
no, it's great. It has me thinking about so many different things, and you know, I was wondering if, as you were talking about playing the clarinet and how was something that felt so sacred to you that you can bring with you anywhere you ended up, anywhere you landed, because you know sometimes transitions, especially, are so difficult, especially on young kids who don't feel like you have as much agency, but that's a thing you could. It is do exactly
Dr. Joy Allen 12:04
what you just said. Transition, and I talk about all the time. Music's a transitional object, whether it's an instrument, whether it's your voice, whether it's a song that is your theme song. It's a transitional object, and it's that's what makes it special. So Linus, was it Linus with his blankie? Yeah, yeah. But think about you know how many times that you had to go through something, and if you many times working within oncology and helping people find their theme song to get through the treatment, to reconnect with a sense of purpose through music. I mean, that becomes that. And how many times you know we talk about when you're feeling lonely and you can feel connected through a song. Yeah, it is absolutely. Yeah,
Alexis Reid 12:53
and I'm just thinking. I know you probably have so much to say too, Jerry, but I am thinking about the emotional regulatory side of it. Yeah, my work is all around executive functions and having to regulate to be able to activate, and you know, I was imagining you as a little girl humming. Yes, and humming is such a regulatory practice. Yeah, I think we forget about that. You know, it's just going and feeling it in your and your chest and your heart and your vibrations. Yeah, and that like how beautiful is it that you, as a young child, were able to find the thing that helped you through those transitions pretty organically. Yeah, I think it's a beautiful reminder, especially to parents who might be listening, that sometimes young children can figure it out, right? And sometimes they they just need the space. They might need the time. They might need the direction. But those little tiny tweaks in life, I think, are the things that stick with us the longest. They
Dr. Joy Allen 13:45
are, and I will be honest with you. I always kind of laugh because as music therapists, nothing we do is rocket science. Yeah, it's actually we're going back to the basics. Yeah, right. Going back to how did you learn about your world as an infant through sound? How did you have a sense of security through a caregiver's voice, right? And the rhythm of that goes along with that. How did you learn your academic concepts? You learned your ABCs through songs. You didn't learn it like A, B. It was A B C D. Right song, right? Right. Yeah. Movement. It was through that. But somehow we got into this thing where, you know, if you weren't going to be the Grammy-winning artist or you weren't going to do this, that you know there was no point doing it anymore, and we put it aside, and or it wasn't good enough, and it's reminding people that it's not about the product; it's about the process, right? And it's not about who cares,
Alexis Reid 14:48
yeah.
Dr. Joy Allen 14:48
But what it sounds like,
Alexis Reid 14:50
yeah.
Dr. Joy Allen 14:50
Be in the moment, yeah. It's the same when you're dancing. Who cares what you look like? Be in the moment. Belt out the song in the shower. You know, sing in the car because even though. Five minutes, you have to breathe. What do you have to do to regulate? You need to breathe. You need to have rhythm and pulse. It provides that. So it's it's something that's just right there. It's so great.
Alexis Reid 15:11
There's Drew Holcomb's wife. I don't know if you know him as a musician. His wife is a singer too. She posted something, and it was like this little button that she had with her her kids, and it's literally the 32nd dance party, and I have it in my office now. And it just like gives you a beat, and it's so silly and it's so funny, but it's so beautiful, right? And I I now have them in every space, right? I love them to like remind us to just let loose. Always say, what do you need
Dr. Joy Allen 15:37
from the music? Do you need to have be affirmed? Do you need connection? Do you need physical release? Oh, that's great. Focused. Yeah, need to to to feel calmer. Like, just ask yourself what you need because I guarantee you can provide it through that. So we
Alexis Reid 15:52
don't usually do this now. We usually wait till the end. But you have shared so much. Sorry, that is benefit. No, no, no, no. I just want to like highlight all of this because it's so helpful for educators, for other therapists, for caregivers and parents, and for us individually to like think about how something as simple as like breathing, humming, dancing, you know, being able to listen to music, to produce music, to be in a space that music just exists, and just to like feel the resonance of it, and how therapeutically beneficial that is, right? I think everybody's looking for these magic solutions, and really they're everywhere once we just slow down enough to pay attention. And I want to highlight too. I love what you shared about you and your daughters that you share songs through your messages, and that's like our love language, right? We'll share a song with family members or friends, and you know I have friends who share with their you know their new partners that they're getting to know. They're sharing songs back and forth, and and that becomes something that you know you remember. Oftentimes, our brains remember the hard things the most, but the other thing that we always hold on to are songs.
Speaker 3 17:05
Yeah,
Alexis Reid 17:05
right. I bet everybody out there can listen and think about you know what what's a song that you remember from your childhood. What's a song that you remember from adolescence? What's a song that you remember from like your hardest adult experience? Like I can listen to a song and it brings me right back to that exact moment I heard it the first time, and
Gerald Reid 17:23
probably with the people you're with, 100%
Alexis Reid 17:25
and the sense of community that it forms even when you're not with people. One of my favorite movies is Almost Famous, and you know when when Penny Lane says, you know sometimes you just have to put on the record, yes, and you can hang out with your friends, right? And it's the same thing that I think we miss so much of in our busy lives. So I just wanted to highlight all of those things and more that you shared so far. And we're only just the very beginning into this. So I just want to, you know, just to like, you know, I know this is your own personal story and journey, but you just shared so many great points and pieces of advice that I think are so simple, as you say, but also so beneficial. Like I think we need to make sure that we remember simplicity. Like you don't need to have something overly sophisticated or expensive or regimented to be helpful. Yeah, sometimes the simplicity actually is the answer.
Gerald Reid 18:16
Well, you know, it reminds me of an important question that we ask in therapy, just traditional therapy, was like, what's the meaning of this that you're bringing up to me? What's the meaning of this experience? And as you're saying, there's a lot of experiences we have that we may not recognize how important they are, or what they're doing for us, or or how they're providing a need for us. And I think even just asking a person, as you're saying, "What do you need? What's the meaning of this? helps the person to self-reflect on what their needs are. And I mean, we always talk about this on the podcast, like perfectionism and just being busy and distracted prevents us from acknowledging our needs.
Speaker 4 18:56
Yeah.
Gerald Reid 18:56
And so, as you're saying, Alexis, and what you're saying, Joy is so important. Is like just the simple things. Just reflect on it. Ask us questions. Get people to reflect on what this does for them, and they may not even realize until they're asked a question.
Dr. Joy Allen 19:09
Exactly. It's it's it's that opening to music allows us to access, to explore, to create, to connect to ourselves or new ways of being. Right? Yeah. Yeah.
Alexis Reid 19:20
I love that, and I also want to highlight that your journey started out in one direction. Like you thought that it was more of the medical model, and then you said, "Well, maybe this isn't exactly the direction I think we we actually would benefit most from. And to integrate the thing that helped you the most with the way you help others and the way you support others is so beautiful too. Well,
Dr. Joy Allen 19:39
thank you. It's so funny because I sit here, my kids will kill me for sharing examples. But I remember in the car a couple a couple years ago, Taylor Swift for the umpteenth millionth time. It was it got to the point where it was how many more all two wells do we have
Speaker 5 19:57
to
Dr. Joy Allen 19:57
12 minute versions. That's how we measured how many more. Hours were left in the trip, right? And which is fine, but I remember her saying, "What if I'm not successful? And I was like, "What do you mean? And she's like, "Well, I look at you, and she's like, "So what if I'm not successful? And I was like, "That's so funny because I don't want you to be like me, and she's like, "Good, because I don't want to work those hours. But what it may, what going back to what you were saying, Jerry, it was a reminder too, and and Alexis, because if you ask little girl me where I'd be right now, oh no, I mean I was a first gen college student. I was, you know, putting, and even now, I don't know where I kind of know, but it goes back to even the work I'm doing now and at Berkeley within the Musikin Health Institute. It's about access, making sure that people have tools in their toolbox and that they know, you know, it doesn't matter if you have billions of dollars. It doesn't matter if you've been, you know, raised by the right educators and pedigree, it's what's in your what's your music? What is your own music within those spaces? So yeah,
Alexis Reid 21:11
you know, a friend and colleague asked me yesterday. Actually, you know, do you think it's more about the nutrients that are in the soil that you're planted in, or is it about the the other factors that are impacting you environmentally? Like, will you just be resilient where you land, or do you actually need other aspects of the process to support you? And that's such a deep question. It is, but I also think it goes back to what you're saying. My response was, you know to my own experience, my own expertise, thinking about it's it's sometimes both.
Dr. Joy Allen 21:44
It is right, yeah.
Alexis Reid 21:45
But it's a little more random where you just expect things to be resilient without the tools.
Dr. Joy Allen 21:51
Exactly,
Alexis Reid 21:52
and I and I want to go into this a little bit more. Can you share about your program that you've helped to develop? Right, it wasn't just something you kind of walked into and took over. You did so much work to build it, to grow it, to allow for it to grow by nurturing it. Yeah.
Dr. Joy Allen 22:07
So before I got into education at Berkeley, I worked clinically as a mesotherapist for many, many years in adolescent mental health, and then I transitioned into medical settings and started a lot of new medical music therapy programs. Did a lot in program development up and down the East Coast and in the South, and a lot with field building. And I I share the story sometimes that I would see. Well, this works, right? We've got decreased pain perception. That is massive when someone's in pain, and you can decrease the pain perception. So, without additional medications, that helps them to not only be able to participate in other therapies in hospital, physical occupational speech, but it helps them have that sense of agency, but helps them get discharged faster, right? And I was like, okay, so we have all this great evidence, so it works. So why isn't this everywhere? And then you realize evidence doesn't mean adoption into everywhere, and that you have to have field building, and you have to have education on how how are you going about this? You know what tools are you're using? What types of music experiences, from songwriting to music and imagery, to a lot with you know improvising experiences and co-creating with with individuals and and then you realize okay you you've got all this you've got this evidence you're you're training people but then how do you capture so that you can train the next generation right and that becomes really important and so I got into the education space. knowing that I could still do my clinical work, but I could start helping to impart some of that knowledge that we know. Because one of the biggest things, I think we've all, I think we can all agree, music works. We've seen it, right? We hear it. Music works, but it's the okay how, and there's a big gap between research and practice. And then, you know, we have all this evidence. It's amazing, quite frankly, in in different areas. And we also know from our own experiences or work that's been taking place in clinical and community based settings. But we got to put this all together, right? And so when I when I had the opportunity to come up to Berkeley, Berkeley already had a music therapy program had been in existence for about 2520 years. It was about 20 years. Berkeley does have the largest undergraduate music therapy. Program in the country, and I'll share a little bit about what music therapists train for. They are musicians, right? At the heart, we're musicians. But what we also learn is the the therapeutic side. We take courses in psychology and human anatomy and physiology, music core, and then your core music therapy, and the core music therapy is, here's methods and techniques, but here's how you have to adapt that based on the presenting needs of the individuals you're working with because you're going into their space. So, for example, I'll just give you a real quick thing. If I'm really angry and you just put on Packabel's cannon, that ain't gonna fix the problem. That might actually make it worse, and likely will make it worse. Right? I actually felt that in my body, right? But I can start where you are musically,
Alexis Reid 25:52
yeah,
Dr. Joy Allen 25:52
right, and start and bring you to where you would like to be. And that's not just me singing a song to you. It might be starting with what perfect example? I'll go back to where we talk about transitional object. Might be, you know, what song is right there right now that says this?
Alexis Reid 26:08
Yeah.
Dr. Joy Allen 26:09
Where are you in that music? Are you the drum in this? Are you the melody in this? Are you those words? Are you just? I don't know. Because the other thing is, as many times, how many times have you been in life, and someone's like, "How are you feeling?
Alexis Reid 26:25
Good, bad, I don't know. Is there
Dr. Joy Allen 26:31
a word? Yeah, right. But if you hear it,
Alexis Reid 26:34
yeah. But
Dr. Joy Allen 26:34
that also, if I flip that around, there's a sense of empathy too for the listener, right? If I hear what that is, if I hear Jerry's song, I can have a sense of empathy because it's again, it's activating those regions of our brain. It's not just the motor cortex; it's also impacting those areas of our brain that process emotions. It's helping those areas of the brain with communication and speech, motor skills, all of that. But where was I going with all of this? The whole point being is got into to Berkeley to to not just work within the music therapy education space to make sure that we continue to advance the work that could be done. So, you know, historically, music therapy got its origins with the military, and what was happening was in World War II, the battlefields and pain, and nurses started realizing if they sing, it helped. Did it take away the pain? No, but it helped take off an edge, but also allowed people to feel safer and to feel they weren't there alone. Because when you're in battlefield, right? So the the field got some of its origins in there, as well as within mental health facilities, state facilities that aren't so much around, where music allowed people to have a sense of belonging, but also forget how important it is to have leisure time, like to having engage in something. And music was something. No matter how severe someone's condition was, how severe, you know, chronic, severe, persistent, something in music allows to regulate, right? And a lot of that, I always look at it as, you know, rhythm is that
Gerald Reid 28:39
calming,
Dr. Joy Allen 28:40
yeah, that that calming force. If you think about melody, it's an analogy for voice and identity, right? And you get into harmony. It's about your relationships and with others. And if you, you know, sometimes we can listen to Beethoven's Ninth. Sometimes we just need the the pulse, right? And depending on where we are, but knowing that information, I know how to enter into a space with you to help you reactivate what you need to get to where you want to go. It's like re-giving you, saying these are your tools in your toolbox. Yeah.
Gerald Reid 29:15
So, so do you help people to listen to music in a more intentional way,
Dr. Joy Allen 29:22
yes. Music listening is one thing. Like it might be anything from, you know, give me songs that you know the pivotal moments in your life, and tell me about the stories behind those. It might be again we talk about song discussions, lyric analyzes. Might be music and imagery. That might be you know looking at those different parts. It might be singing together. It might be moving in place. Like for example, when I'm working with you know an older adults who are going through physical rehabilitation or anyone who's been through physical rehabilitation, let's just all admit it's not fun. It's painful. To no fault of anyone, it's rehabilitation, right? You put that to if you're just sitting there doing your your knee exercises or anyone who exercises, can you run without music? Maybe I don't think so, right? But because the music is entraining into your brain and matching, it's easier to then it becomes this thing that not only is going to start activating your response. So if you start hearing music, you're going to start tapping your toes. But it blocks the pathway from this experiencing this to okay, this is a little bit more pleasurable. So I can then increase my response and my exercise and my motivation because I'm enjoying it more. So even being able to with older adults with I'll use example with stroke, stroke you know what, and they have gross or fine motor movement. If I'm just asking to just cross over my midline, but if I do that and let's say I use I don't know Benny Goodman because I love him, and we start, but it would be something they like. But we can start doing that in time, and there's drama on one side. You're getting automatic biofeedback, but it becomes something that's not just, you know,
Gerald Reid 31:14
stale.
Dr. Joy Allen 31:15
Yes, into something that this is more enjoyable. Then put it in with a group of people, and it's okay.
Alexis Reid 31:21
Yeah, I
Dr. Joy Allen 31:21
have something to look forward to. I have something that I'm engaging in. I've that same example in a rehabilitation setting. Writing a song. There's nothing worse than when you're going through an injury and you have to participate in therapy when you don't feel like it. It's hard, and it's motivation waxes and wanes. You know, years ago, I used to run a group, and it's going to sound crazy that we called it the Breakfast Club, and it was all everyone had to be. It was a subacute rehab, generally over 50. They either had knee replacements, hip replacements, some type of surgery, and motivation was tough. Well, we got together at eight a.m. Kid you not over breakfast. I would have my guitar, just start playing the blues, and we would write. Now, if I said to them, "Guess what you're going? We're going to a songwriting group. Do you think they would show up? I wouldn't show up. I'm going to be honest, but I'm there with my guitar and I just start playing. Next thing, be like, it's early Friday morning. It's the end of the week, and they would start filling in. But more importantly, they would go into the gym after that, and they would know each other. They would cheer each other on. They would become each other's motivation on the days when they didn't have
Speaker 3 32:46
it. So
Dr. Joy Allen 32:47
that simple thing of, and yes, they thought it should be on the radio, but but that simple thing of tapping into something that was there. They could tell their story, but they were more importantly, music was the vessel for connecting with a self what they needed at the time, you know, to get through.
Gerald Reid 33:08
And it's always there for them. It's once you create something, it's always it's always
Dr. Joy Allen 33:12
there. And and so many stories too. You know, another use of you know that's one way. There's times where we improv, and you know, have had cancer patients who have been in severe distress because of body image and how it changes, and you know, being referred to go see them in the hospital. And I remember this one woman just crying and crying. You know her hair. She was so upset about her hair. The response isn't "you'll get over it" or "the grow back. That's a real. It's grief and loss that was probably a culmination of lifelong right into her hair, and just sitting there and being able to put and frame improvised music around that, so she could let it go and come to a place of okay, and that's where we talk about that emotional grounding-that being able to regulate, but you have to express it first. But and
Gerald Reid 34:18
then she feels seen.
Dr. Joy Allen 34:19
She sees seen. She feels heard, but she can let it out versus carrying it in. And sometimes we just need that safe space, that container, that music to be that container in order to do that. So they're not really concrete examples. I promised, but you know. But even to you know simple things within, you know, now with working in different areas that I work with, being able to just put together your story, tell your story through music, or one of the things that I've done with with students many times is. You know what are the sounds of your neighborhood, and what would they like them to be? Because different neighborhoods are different, and then when you hear, you get a different sense of empathy within
Gerald Reid 35:15
that. That's interesting. I mean,
Dr. Joy Allen 35:16
even if you go two two weeks ago, I was down in. And Roxbury, and at the sirens, the loudness, and I was like, "Oh my gosh, it's overstimulating to me.
Gerald Reid 35:28
Yeah,
Dr. Joy Allen 35:29
that's people's reality versus mine, where it's quiet and the birds are chirping. But how can we then give? Okay, this is what it is, but how can we help you create what you would like? So at night, when you're stressed and anxious,
Gerald Reid 35:45
yeah,
Dr. Joy Allen 35:45
you have your own sounds and your own music that you've created to
Gerald Reid 35:49
wow
Dr. Joy Allen 35:50
transform that to what it is that you need. That's so
Gerald Reid 35:53
great because it it helps people to realize how things affect them too. Yeah, because when something's so normalized, it's like you don't even realize all that's overstimulating until you reflect on it. Yeah,
Alexis Reid 36:02
it's so funny. I think since I've been in Boston, mostly lived near a highway or train, and when I listen to those noises, I now hear like the waves. Yes, instead of it being like a perfect example and reinterpret it. Yeah, literally because
Dr. Joy Allen 36:20
it's it's and and you know, literally and then metaphorically, it's given you back your sense of control. Right. I can't control that, and you ain't getting rid of the trains, but I can have that agency. And what can I do to serve what it is that I I need to function in this space? Yeah. Well, I'm
Alexis Reid 36:37
not a cognitive behavioral therapist, but I integrate a lot of the, you know, we can change the narrative around this. We can't change the situation, but we can change the way we perceive it. We can change the way we experience it, and I think music is such a way, good way of doing it. We had Steve Gross from the the Life Is Good Playmakers. Oh yeah, and he was talking about how you know his son has a different type of music that he's into, and instead of saying immediately like, "Oh, you know, I don't like this because this is what I typically like, you know, he joins him to listen and ask questions of like, "Well, what do you like about this music? That and you join their experience. Perfect
Dr. Joy Allen 37:14
example, isn't it great? I tell parents all the time, instead of like, "Oh my God, you're not listening to da da da, yeah,
Alexis Reid 37:20
yeah,
Dr. Joy Allen 37:21
take breath,
Alexis Reid 37:22
right,
Dr. Joy Allen 37:22
and say,
Alexis Reid 37:24
"Why do you like it?
Dr. Joy Allen 37:25
And how does
Gerald Reid 37:26
it connect to your life?
Speaker 6 37:27
Yeah, yeah,
Dr. Joy Allen 37:28
yeah. What do you like? Tell, tell me what you like about this because it's. I remember even my daughter. I remember what song it was, but I'm like, "This has nothing to do with her life. Yeah, what is this about? And she's like, "The beat, and I was like, she's like, mom, not everything is so deep, and I'm like, oh yeah, because I'm like listening to these lyrics, and she's like, I'm not listening to that. I like the beat. You hear the beat drop, and I'm listening to these, and I'm like, oh, but it's what you just said, like
Alexis Reid 37:54
totally.
Dr. Joy Allen 37:54
But here's a a moment of connection and a moment where it's not do this, do that, or you're doing this wrong, or you're doing that wrong. Of just yeah. Oh, thanks. And it gets better. Thanks for sharing. Yeah, it
Gerald Reid 38:06
completely comes full circle back to needs.
Speaker 7 38:08
Yes. So like, so like, what do you need about that meeting? Like, why is
Gerald Reid 38:11
that beat helping you? And Lexus and Joy, you were both saying how like the the dance movement of music has become so EDM music or whatever that type of music is is so popular, partly because you want to share your hypothesis. Oh,
Dr. Joy Allen 38:24
I have lots of hypotheses, but I'll I'll I'll start by saying we know there's a mental health crisis. We know the anxiety levels and collective anxiety is through the roof, and rhythm is grounding, and
Speaker 3 38:37
the
Dr. Joy Allen 38:38
EDM.
Gerald Reid 38:39
There's not really an alternative to that, too, right? If you think about it, like in day to day life, there's not a lot of like rhythmic music that we're exposed to. Wow, it's just like what you said. Where's the music on the street? Yeah, right. I think yeah,
Alexis Reid 38:50
unless you're in New Orleans, there's like a drum line. There is. Well, even in New Orleans, you've got
Dr. Joy Allen 38:53
street musicians everywhere. Yeah, yeah. And you you've got you know people with bottle caps on their shoes making rhythms. You have music is celebrated part of the culture. Is there problems in New Orleans? Oh my gosh, immense. However, that sense of community is through the music, and they learn even through Katrina. We're a music city. We bring the music back. Everyone's you know playing in the brass band. They're in the Mardi Gras parades. The marching bands are huge. It's not about, oh my gosh, you are the top performer and you're this. It's I get to be in community to do this. Can I ask you a question about that environment too?
Gerald Reid 39:31
I'm curious because like sometimes I think you can go to listen to music. You're like, oh, that's just like a band playing. You're not really feeling it. You're not really experiencing it. Is it different in that type of environment where like you're actually like so, like it's so part of the culture, and you're like you you feel fully present with it because you can listen to music and not be present with it.
Dr. Joy Allen 39:49
Absolutely, and I think there's it depends, right? There's always going to be something that you don't like, yeah, and that's okay. Like you don't have to like everything, you know. Whether, but it, I think. When you you hear rhythm, you're gonna move.
Gerald Reid 40:02
Yeah,
Dr. Joy Allen 40:03
right. It's it's like if it's overpowering, you know it's different. But you you learn the ways, and you learn the rhythms, and you learn the rhythms of your own flow in life. But but you also gravitate to what makes sense for you. I mean, it's not so much that there's not silence either. Silence is important, but but I do think that there's we know at certain times. I mean, I know what song I need at a certain time. I know it, and I know sometimes, like the other day, I just had on like new track list on Apple, and this song "Heaven" came up. I think it's by Miles Smith, and there's something in those lyrics, and I was like, I needed that to, I, I, and I just kept listening to it because it's what I needed. You look at the lyrics, and you're like, okay, that's where I am right now, and that's okay. But I think you know one of the things that I think within I'll bring it back to the EDM and then collective anxiety is its grounding. And I shared earlier, you know, you hear people say it's the it's the one time where they feel reconnected to their bodies.
Gerald Reid 41:18
Yeah, their bodies. That's such a different point. Their bodies. Why do you think that is? Like they're so disconnected from their bodies.
Dr. Joy Allen 41:23
I think where we get to the point where we've become at times task orient oriented, robotic. Do this, do that. You're supposed to do this. You're supposed to do that. You feel, but I also think teens is a. We've all had our teen years, and it's a sense of trying to figure out the world and who we are as people, and that's a lot. And we didn't have social media when I was growing up. We do now, and it's who am I? This allows me to reground. Doesn't have the answers, but it allows me feel
Dr. Joy Allen 41:55
to feel to feel grounded when all of this stuff. I don't know where I'm going to go to school. I don't know if I'm going to get good enough grades. I don't know if I have friends. I don't know if I'm going to be bullied. Don't you know whatever it is happening on
Gerald Reid 42:07
screen?
Dr. Joy Allen 42:07
I can reconnect with my body when we feel so disconnected. It's that that sense. It's the same as you know a child when they feel the heartbeat next to their mom. That's
Gerald Reid 42:22
interesting. It's
Dr. Joy Allen 42:22
you know the same thing. Yeah, it is. I mean, I really think it is, and I think so many times it's the same when someone holds your hand. Sometimes you need that touch to remind. It's it's it's connects you literally to your body because we get so in our heads and so out of it. But I, you know, EDM. But I also think it allows them to be
Gerald Reid 42:45
not think. Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Joy Allen 42:47
You're just in your bodies again, in your moment. All the stress and pressures are gone. Yeah. I mean, I've gone to clubs, not to the extent that they do, but and I get it. I totally get it, and it's nice when you can shut off the world and just be in community. If you even see, if you watch the videos, the rhythm-they're in rhythm. All of them. It's beautiful.
Alexis Reid 43:15
It's it's so interesting because I go to a lot of live
Dr. Joy Allen 43:18
yeah
Alexis Reid 43:18
concerts. That's like my outlets, the thing I love to do the most, for I think that reason, and I've I've been reflecting on this with a lot of therapist friends that you know we like to join community in a place where our minds can kind of just disconnect, and we can just feel the experience.
Dr. Joy Allen 43:37
Yes,
Alexis Reid 43:37
right. And there's this idea, and I think it goes back to what you were talking about too with this mental health crises that we're experiencing as not just an American society, I think a global phenomenon that we're experiencing, where there's a lack of connection that everybody is. We've said this a million times on the podcast that we're connected through all this digital technology, but we're really so disconnected, and and coming together with live music or digital music in in a shared live space is, I think, so important. And I've seen this progression of you know young people coming to concerts where they're just kind of like standing there and not sure how to engage, what to do, and now all of a sudden, yeah, or they're talking too much. That's a whole nother story. Our producer Mike and I want to do a whole PSA. How about the whole cell phone? Oh my gosh! Yeah, I'm guilty of that sometimes too. But overall talking at the concert is a whole other experience. My gosh! But I, you know, I think it's it's so interesting. I've been noticing this progression of you know showing up and just being there, and now all of a sudden, I see these young people jumping and dancing and moshing and feeling, and like it's be it's been this huge curve where they're like overly inhibited, and now they're just releasing, and I think that's like in. Of what our society needs more of, not to just like you know trauma dump our emotions on every experience we have, but to just feel and connect with what we're experiencing in this present moment in a shared space. And it's all
Gerald Reid 45:15
it's all natural too. It is natural, and it's through is it this
Alexis Reid 45:19
beat that goes back to like you were saying, you know the the very first moment that we become life forms, right? Because we hear the beat of our mother's heart as we're in gestation and growing as as newborns. Amazing, yeah.
Dr. Joy Allen 45:33
And it's it's even going back to you know music in the schools, even in preschool. That was the beauty of it. They you got to bop,
Alexis Reid 45:41
yeah,
Dr. Joy Allen 45:41
on the floor with kids, you had to sing, and it was no one cared if you were in tune. No one cared if you looked funny, but we became these things. But yeah, it's it's it's amazing, and it's it's also I will say one of the other things that we forget sometimes in parts of like reclaiming parts of ourselves, is reclaim those parts of music. For you, you love to go to concerts. You know that's important to you. You're playing. I mean, you are playing guitar and you're singing. And just because you're not in high school or elementary school doesn't mean you can't go pick up an instrument. We even know individuals with dementia can still learn how to play an instrument. Get
Gerald Reid 46:24
out, really. Yeah, I was just
Alexis Reid 46:25
gonna say he needs candid
Dr. Joy Allen 46:27
for language, right? Yeah, yes, because that part doesn't leave. It's amazing. And again, the thing with music, and and you know, you can Google your brain on music and see how it literally lights up every part, and there's this concept of neuroplasticity. When you hit something, when the mesa helps you find a different way around it, and within neuroplasticity in the brain, that's why we can use it within TBI and stroke and Parkinson's because of that neuroplasticity. It helps refire neurons. Yes. yes, and so you can still play and give yourself permission that you can just do this. Even you know, I'm using my daughter again. You know, she she was she took my guitar and I was like, "You're not playing my guitar, like not that one. So I got her her own guitar, and I'm like, "Do you want me to get you lessons? Da da da da. And she's like, "Could you leave me alone? I will teach myself, and you don't have to make everything like I have to do it this way, this way, that way. She taught herself guitar. Cool. She, you know why she uses it when she's really stressed?
Alexis Reid 47:40
Yeah, I can
Dr. Joy Allen 47:41
hear her singing and playing, and I just let it go. We don't have to talk about it. We don't have to. But you know, as one of the things I wish we would get a little bit back into is, you know, there used to be community bands. Yeah, used to be community choirs. Yeah, there used to be, you know, if if you want to go hang with other musicians, there's very little space for that because it becomes a competition. Yeah, and even here in Boston, sorry, Bostonians, you know, I I used to be in a wind ensemble. If I want to be in one here, I have to do four auditions. I'm like, listen, I just want to play. I don't need to like practice eight hours a day. It's about you know being in community and playing, so true, and feeling right. But you know we don't get away from that and just you know
Gerald Reid 48:31
yeah
Dr. Joy Allen 48:32
allow yourself to to play. You want to sing, sing. If you want to learn the guitar, learn the guitar. But that's what's gonna help navigate life, and we already know creative aging wise, learning an instrument is one of the best things that you can do for yourself for aging. Yeah, yeah. Even when you're 20 years old, aging makes a difference. Learning an instrument makes a difference.
Alexis Reid 48:55
Can we permanently delete the phrase "You can't teach an old dog new tricks" Oh, it just should not exist. No, I mean it's just a
Dr. Joy Allen 49:03
different way of playing. Totally. Listen, I, I, you know, we talk about music therapists have to learn guitar, piano, percussion, and that. Do you think I learned on Bach and Chopin?
Alexis Reid 49:13
Yeah.
Dr. Joy Allen 49:14
No, I learned boom chuck chucks. I can play functional. I can play the chords to a song, and I love it.
Alexis Reid 49:20
Yeah.
Dr. Joy Allen 49:20
Do I want to be on stage? No. But I love it, and it's you know some nights I just play for myself, and that's okay. And it's there. It's a constant. And you know, for people out you know who are listening, you know think about reconnecting with your musical self.
Alexis Reid 49:38
Yeah.
Dr. Joy Allen 49:38
You know, just go to karaoke. I love. There's a group in New York City, and they come to Boston sometimes. And there's more. I see a little bit more pop-ups here in Boston. They're called Gaia Music Collective, and they do these one-day choirs, and they're so awesome because a group of like 200 people come into this space. They get the music ahead of time. It doesn't matter if you know, you know, four part harmony sing, but that collective experience for two hours being in a space with strangers,
Alexis Reid 50:10
yeah,
Dr. Joy Allen 50:11
that you now become connected to, is so healing.
Alexis Reid 50:16
We were so fortunate to go see John Baptiste with the with the pops, and it was so beautiful because he did just that. And I, the week later, I'm just so blessed. It's not even funny. I got to see Jacob Collier do the same thing, but they they just brought the audience into the experience, right? It wasn't just them on stage performing. They're like, "How do we bring everybody together? Jacob Collier did the coolest thing. He he started doing bird sounds,
Dr. Joy Allen 50:42
and then
Alexis Reid 50:42
he started to have you know different sides of the space, you know, play or sing or create a different sound. And we're not musicians, right? We were there to experience a concert, and the resonance that I felt in my body from the energy that was coming from everybody participating, even if you are a musician, was so beautiful. And as you're talking, I'm thinking about, you know, folks, especially who have experienced trauma, who might not always feel comfortable in bigger spaces with a lot of people. But if if you can't co-regulate with others, it's almost like you can co-regulate with music.
Dr. Joy Allen 51:22
You can. It it is your literal companion. Yeah, literal companion. Yeah, and you know it's oftentimes one of those first things. You know, because again, think of it as a transitional object. You know, object where you know I might not know you, and I'm not ready for those those experiences, but I can start here, and I can start with you know being in a space with music and just using it the way that I need it to be used. Yeah. So as we're
Alexis Reid 51:52
recording this, we are a week out from shall we call like Noah Confest at Fenway Park, something like that. There's like he's playing four or five shows that are all sold out. Bless him, he's doing great work. But it's interesting because I'm constantly thinking about, well, why is this a movement, right? He has talent, you know. His songs are catchy, and so many people really love his music. I think we all like can listen to it and bop along, if you know, even if you're not really into it. But I've heard from a lot of young people that you know his music is sad. He'll say it himself. He's like, you know, I think his new album. He said the
Dr. Joy Allen 52:28
story.
Alexis Reid 52:28
Yeah, he's like, I think I I wrote this during the winter when I was kind of depressed. So don't get excited about the summer because you're gonna have you know a depressing summer if you're listening to my music. But it and it's it's interesting because a lot of young people that we've talked to and we work with, they resonate with it with the music, especially because they feel seen. They feel like their experience is is showcased and you know told in the stories that Noah Khan shares in his lyrics and music about their lives too. And and again going back to this idea of of wanting to feel a shared experience and collective community, I I think there's something there that like there's so many people that are feeling the sadness, the heaviness of the moment that the music you know it it maybe isn't healing in that it's lifting up their spirits, but it's healing in that they feel it's allowing them to
Dr. Joy Allen 53:23
access, yeah, and access sometimes explore it, validates. I mean, and it's many things all of us did. It's we're putting we're putting words to it now, right? Yeah, like I, I can tell you how many times, and and y'all could think about to your own experiences where again there was that one artist, that one song that you related to, and so often we don't know how to say what we want to say. We don't know what we're experiencing, and even you know with Noah Con, Noah Confest. I love saying that. You know, it's it's we're about to
Alexis Reid 53:59
experience it here in New England last. This is this,
Dr. Joy Allen 54:02
but you know, and and on the flip side, it lets them feel joy too. I mean, I think about Pink Pony Club. I mean, I love and I just love dancing, and I love you know singing at the top of my lungs. And people know different, you know, why she wrote it. But you also have four-year-olds who are singing it, and they have their own meaning to it, and that's okay. Like it's okay because look at that joy, look at that expression, look at that that moment of sheer connected to self or others. Right? There's
Alexis Reid 54:39
when I was in graduate school, I connected really deeply with psychologist Jerome Kagan and his work. You know, a lot of people know about his temperament research, but he did so much research and writing on emotion. And there's a book called "What Is Emotion" that I constantly reference because he talks about how in the English language there aren't really too many different. Gradiations of emotion that we can express in words, right? We can't actually articulate how we're feeling. When you were talking before, I'm like, I think I want to just answer the question, "How are you? with like a song title or lyric from now on, yeah, because I think you know it is really difficult to express how we're feeling and what we need, and and music is almost like again you you refer to the toolbox, but it's like it's almost like you're unlocking something that might have been hidden or unknown. It is. It's
Dr. Joy Allen 55:32
going right back to what's been part of you, and absolutely. And I love how you just put that in such a beautiful way, and it's amazing to me that you know whether it's you know the emotions, whether it's the you know memories, whether it's you know helping with anxiety or pain, or whether it's giving us a sense of hope,
Speaker 8 56:01
which
Dr. Joy Allen 56:02
many times we need. It's there. It's there, and it's different ways to to unlock that and and use it.
Gerald Reid 56:09
So let's talk about songwriting because I think that there is a hesitation for a lot of people to try this idea of songwriting. I imagine I don't know too much about music therapy. I imagine it's a big part of it is, as you're saying, like like finding how to put experiences or feelings or thoughts into words. At least I'm speaking from my experience, but like it requires a tremendous amount of openness and lack of self consciousness. And so, can you speak to that experience of helping people through the practice of music therapy to to engage in it because I mean I try not to think at all about the fact that I'm like making music and people are perceiving it. I just don't go down the route, the rabbit hole, becoming self conscious because it's not the point of why I do it in the first place, and it's kind of a black hole of becoming self conscious about it. Oh,
Dr. Joy Allen 56:56
absolutely. So go about it in different ways. Sometimes it's you know it's it's organic. I will say that I've never gone in. It's like we're gonna do something this way. It's that you know big belief that we meet people where they are in the moment, and we go from there. So sometimes it's starting with you know what does it sound like? What what does today sound like? Does it sound more like this, and giving examples of chord structures that sound more like this. But within that very thing, you're giving them a chance to make a decision. Because how many times when you're in crises, you know whether it's medical, mental health, you don't have a choice. Good
Gerald Reid 57:37
point.
Dr. Joy Allen 57:38
You don't have a choice, right? And so, even that simple, would you like it like this or like this? Or if it's in within a group, do we see it? How do we compromise? Because we can use that same concept with impulse control, learning to listen to others, compromise. But you know that same concept. You you you won't sound like this. Do we want it to sound like this? Or it might be just starting with playing the blues, but many times when I have used songwriting, it's someone starts sharing something that comes, and I'm like, "Does it sound kind of like this? Or this reminds me of this. Can we start with that? Nice.
Gerald Reid 58:17
And then you kind of riff off of each other. Yeah, riff
Dr. Joy Allen 58:19
off. You know whether it's within words or sounds, and sometimes it's you know everything they've said you know they takes off right. Other times it's holding the space right because the song's not finished yet. Yeah.
Gerald Reid 58:35
Well, so much of like life is really I mean not really conscious. Yeah, like that stuff is deep inside people to like really say exactly what they mean. I always think people. I mean, I have a song I wrote called "Turn the Page, and the the lyric is like, "We don't really say what we really mean half the time. It comes out metaphorically. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Dr. Joy Allen 58:54
Well, because in some ways too, you know, if we think about songs and and songwriting and back to the transitional object. It's a sense of safety. I don't have to own that because maybe that's not safe for me, or I don't feel safe enough to own that feeling right now or that experience. But put it there. Put it in third person, and it becomes. Could talk about their experience, and then say, "What do I want to take about that with me today.
Gerald Reid 59:21
So, do you sometimes change the language of the lyrics to like I versus he or she or they or like to change the how personal it feels or how like like sensitive or vulnerable they are to like as you're saying like I
Dr. Joy Allen 59:37
let them do that
Gerald Reid 59:38
okay yeah so it
Dr. Joy Allen 59:38
might be do we want the I or do we want a we, or is it, or they? Yeah, right. It's like a because it's a lot of co collaboration within that. Because you ever hear
Gerald Reid 59:48
people say, like, when they reflect on, like, I'm sorry, this is like a tangent, but like, you ever see an athlete being interviewed and they're like, how did you do that? And the athlete will say, you know, you just have to go out and you have to have a mindset like. This, but they're not talking about themselves. They're not like, oh, I felt vulnerable and I had to like change my mindset. They'll say, you just have to go do this. Yes, and it's an interesting use of language. Yes, that they're not saying what what they're experiencing, what they're saying, as if they're like giving a lecture about how to do it. No,
Dr. Joy Allen 1:00:16
it's it's it's that honoring the way they say it because I always look at it as it's given me insight to where they are. If they're saying that that's how they were, that's how they, and if I and I might turn around and say, "Where are you in this? That's going to tell me insight. But a big belief that you know, in in in my own practice within music therapy, is that the music leads somewhere they need, but it also allows them to be where they are right now, right? And and I have a beautiful case study that, if I can, I'll share if that's okay with you. That kind of captures it. In this particular case study, it's one of the hardest things I wrote, but it kind of captures what you were saying in terms of I wanted the client to be here, right? But that's not where the client was, and I think those very things about that music being that that container, that safety, that transitional object, whatever it needs to be, allows people and it gives insight. So as much as I might want, you know, my child or my loved one or my friends here, if they're here, I can help try to guide. But ultimately, all healing comes from within.
Gerald Reid 1:01:41
True.
Dr. Joy Allen 1:01:41
So they have to be presented the tools in different ways and take what they need.
Gerald Reid 1:01:47
You're so mindful of that when you're working with people. Yeah, much like traditional therapy too. You just you know, kind of language are they using? What do they bring up? What do they not bring up?
Dr. Joy Allen 1:01:55
Yeah, experience, reflect, transform over and over. Yeah, and I love
Alexis Reid 1:02:01
what you said too. That you know, this song doesn't need to be over, right? That doesn't have to be the ending. No, it just maybe is the beginning or getting them to the present moment. Yes, that they can see that there's more of a story to tell.
Dr. Joy Allen 1:02:15
There is, and there's you know, and it can be used on the you know macro, micro, even you know. Think about there's things in life that aren't going to be fixed, right? Quick fix, but you know, even if I'm here right now and I need to make it through the day, put a song that captures where you are right now. Put a couple more in there to lead to where you need to be for that moment. That doesn't mean that it fixed it. It gave you a tool to get through a day, right? And sometimes we need that tool.
Alexis Reid 1:02:51
the The other thing that I keep reminding, especially my clients, of is like emotions aren't to be pushed away and pushed aside. They are something to be felt. It's part of our human experience, even when it's uncomfortable. That's why you love
Dr. Joy Allen 1:03:03
live
Alexis Reid 1:03:03
music. Yeah, I think so, right? Because you can just feel it. Like sometimes you don't have control over, but it's so important to feel. I think we're. I think we're living in a society where everybody expects things to just be great. Because to be honest, especially here in the U.S. there has been like a upward progression in so many aspects of our world and our life for a pretty long time. You know that there's greater access to technology, and you know I I think it's important to remember that like we need to feel sometimes we need to feel the heaviness of a moment. We need to just be in it, and I think music is a really good opportunity to allow for you to be in it, but maybe just for a shorter period of time. We've been watching Shrinking on Apple TV, and Harrison Ford's character is a therapist, and I can't remember the amount of time, but he says, you know, just listen to a music. You're only allowed to listen to it for seven minutes or 15 minutes or whatever, and you're allowed to cry it out and feel all the feels. And then after that time, you need to just stop and check in and see what you need. Yeah, and I think that's a beautiful thing. And it's such a great night. Listen, I tell everyone,
Dr. Joy Allen 1:04:06
jazz fans, Dave Rubek, take five, take five, take five minutes a day and use music. Whether it's your singing, yeah, whether it's your breathing to the music, whether you're moving to the music, whether you're playing music, take five. Just take five minutes in that moment where you're like, "Oh my god!
Alexis Reid 1:04:26
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Joy Allen 1:04:27
Take five.
Alexis Reid 1:04:28
I, I, I took some time and I, I wrote down a few aspects of like my day that I know will help me to show up the best I can. And obviously, every day is not going to all be all those things or at the highest point or the greatest expression of them, but one of them is you know move your body, dance around, yes, right, and whatever that looks like, even if it's for one song. But I can distinctly feel a difference in my body in my day, yeah. When I do or don't do that, when I do or don't listen to music, yeah, and you know maybe that's just me because I gravitate towards it and I feel it so deeply, but I I think everybody can benefit. From you know whether it's just rhythm or beat or song or an album, I'm a big fan of
Dr. Joy Allen 1:05:06
anything.
Alexis Reid 1:05:07
I have a I have a big record collection because I'm trying to really fully experience music the way the artist intended it from the beginning to the end because I think that's so important. I think we've lost that in our digital grammar society. Yeah, or in small chunks, which there's value to that part of how the album
Dr. Joy Allen 1:05:22
is put together. Absolutely, it's
Alexis Reid 1:05:24
so beautiful, and and it brings me out of my experience to be able to experience somebody else's. And it might not be, and this is the other part I love about music and songwriting, even though I'm not a songwriter myself. That you know, you might somebody might write a song based on their experience, but you don't have to experience that same thing to appreciate the song. No, which is so
Dr. Joy Allen 1:05:46
exactly exactly.
Gerald Reid 1:05:48
So I think songwriting does something magical too-that it slows you down, as you're saying, to like it's it's kind of like therapy. I know a lot of musicians say that, like like I think Lainey Wilson said, it's just like this is basically my therapy because it helps me to like slow down and access and understand myself. Because it's like when you go to therapy, people really appreciate the sacredness of like we're gonna sit there for 45 minutes. I'm we're like take I'm gonna make sure we take our time. Not gonna rush you. I'm gonna be reflective with you. Create that space for you to process. Is like you know, writing a song is like that because you're like, oh, it's kind of like this, but it's not totally like that. When people talk, when I train the therapists at BU, and I'm like trying to teach them how to be therapists, I'm like, when their eyes go up, don't say a word because they're like, it stuff's going on in their head. Don't interrupt that. And if they say something, say say more about what you meant by that. Like it, it takes time. It's a process, and I think that is so valuable, so valuable. Yeah,
Dr. Joy Allen 1:06:50
yeah. And it's so the music therapist in me when you're talking about that, and I'm like, yes, we can do songwriting as a cognitive exercise. We can do it as being going back into the emotional domain, spiritual, social domains, we can even get into the physical domain if we're doing, you know, instrumental. And yeah, so I'm sitting there like, there's all the different ways. But I only bring that up to say is that what a beautiful gift all of us have in in the sense of music. Yeah,
Alexis Reid 1:07:17
same goes for learning. You know, exactly beats certain progressions. Yes, it's like
Dr. Joy Allen 1:07:21
everything, and yeah, all of it, all of the above. D answer D.
Alexis Reid 1:07:29
I love it when that's the answer. So, okay, I have a serious question logistically because I know there might be some people out there that are like, "Oh, this is something I really would want to do. Musical therapy. I love music. I love helping people. How can I integrate and put that together? So logistically, you know, I know your path and journey is to be a clinical on the clinical side and then integrate music. That was kind of your path to getting into music therapy. But do you have to be a clinical psychologist or counselor to be a music therapist, or do you have to be an actual musician to practice music therapy? So
Dr. Joy Allen 1:08:05
what you're picking up on is I look at it as the bigger umbrella of music and health, right? And when we're thinking about music and health, I always use the analogy: if I have a paper cut, I might put a bandaid on it. I probably put like a paper towel. If it's a little deeper cut, you know, some some antiseptic, I might go to the doctor. But if I've severed my finger, I need a surgeon. So when I think about the use of music for health related outcomes, I think about that kind of same continuum from therapeutic to therapy. So I think about how all of us use music in our everyday lives, and we have through again beginning of our of our lives. And I think about those moments when we just need therapeutic versus when we might really need someone with more expertise on how to use the music because of whatever crisis or life event that we're facing, and so I share that to say that you know people use music in different ways in medical context and community-based settings. We work with musicians. We train them at Berkeley to tools to help run groups with older adults, to help with isolation, to with youth with peer recovery. But the music therapy, mesotherapy, you know, is a board-certified profession. That yes, you do have to be a musician. You have to go and study, and it's really that expertise in treatment planning, assessment, treat, and evaluate. Of okay, here is the the need right here. How am I going to co-create that music-based experience to help that individual or group address those particular outcomes? So you're
Gerald Reid 1:09:49
trying to conceptualize the person, their needs, and then utilize the tools and techniques.
Dr. Joy Allen 1:09:55
Exactly. What exactly? And so music therapists work anywhere and. Medical settings. Boston Children's Hospital, I believe, has like 13 music therapists. Dana Farber, Mass General, all of them. School-based settings with individuals with developmental health challenges, neurodivergent populations as well. They work in nursing homes, hospices, community-based settings, mental health settings, eating disorders, addictions. It's a lot, but what we do in each one is a little bit different. But what doesn't change is our toolbox of methods and techniques. But again, what the specialized use of the music therapy is-we're literally learning. Okay, you know, in cancer care, you know, here are some of the top issues that individuals face: chronic pain. Okay, I know when I'm getting a referral for you know pancreatic cancer, there's a lot of chronic pain issues, and so I'm helping a lot of times develop tools for the individual to use. A once they're out of crises, because you're only in the hospital if you're really having issues with pain management. But then, how can I take what we've what we've learned for when you go home, so that you have a tool in your toolbox to use? So it's very targeted treatment planning. Same, I'll use Spalding Rehabilitation Hospital. I'm music therapist there. We're using a lot with gait improvement, speech communication. But you know, if I'm at home and I want to exercise, I don't need the music therapist. I don't need that expertise. So I hope that kind of answered your your question. Yeah, yeah. It's you know it's that that spectrum, and I will say there's a massive shortage of music therapists. We need more music therapists. There's been a huge demand because of the research evidence. So the National Institutes of Health has shown the research evidence to show the the database of evidence on the use of mesic for health related outcomes, and it's non invasive and it's as you said all natural. But there's ways that we can be taking these simple methods and techniques to improve. I mean, we have plenty of open jobs in this area alone. I'm hiring right now as well. If anyone's out there at Berkeley, but my whole point with that is that there's there's absolutely a shortage of music therapists. Now, some people, you know, I'll use you, Jerry, as an example. You're a clinical psychologist. Do you use music in your practice? Yes, you do. You don't have to. Yes, you even said like you know, choose a piece of music to listen to. Yeah, that is still valuable, right? So it's not this like only music therapists can do this. It's thinking about that continuum, and you know if you have a loved one who's really struggling where this is, it's a different level of expertise. Just like a therapist, sometimes you want your best friend or a friend to talk to someone. You need sometimes you need someone with more expertise, right? It's that same kind of concept. So you know, definitely check out the Barclays Music Therapy page for more information, but also check out the Musik and Health Institute because it goes into some of that. But it also has a very large research repository that shows the research by different conditions. I was just going to ask: Is there like
Alexis Reid 1:13:17
different types of music that you know will benefit specific symptoms or diagnoses.
Dr. Joy Allen 1:13:24
Yeah, well, I wouldn't say diagnoses per se, but I would say we know elements of the music that are needed to shift. So I know, for example, I'll use example with premature babies, and we work over in Nicky's here in Boston. Tell
Alexis Reid 1:13:40
us more. I know somebody in that exact situation right now. Actually, yeah, we know from
Dr. Joy Allen 1:13:44
the research evidence that you know when premature babies regulation is a major issue. Feeding is a major issue. That feed suck response. That's what rhythm does.
Alexis Reid 1:13:56
Wow.
Dr. Joy Allen 1:13:58
Right. It's that feed suck response, but it's also that bonding and mother caregiver anxiety. So the research. So go back to your to your question in terms of specific type of music. It's elements of the music. So we know tempo slower slower to the natural heartbeat are important. We know with, for example, with neonates, we can't have large leaps in the melody line. It's too much. If you think about when you're overwhelmed and overstimulated, and you put on Beethoven's Ninth, that ain't going to be helpful, right? But that same kind of concept of how we use the elements of the music, I will give an easy example: If guess what type of music helps you focus the most? Any guesses?
Alexis Reid 1:14:47
Classical.
Dr. Joy Allen 1:14:48
Nope.
Alexis Reid 1:14:48
Jazz. I know that because that's what most people
Dr. Joy Allen 1:14:51
traditionally game scores.
Alexis Reid 1:14:54
Yeah.
Dr. Joy Allen 1:14:55
And if you think about game scores, think about the music.
Alexis Reid 1:14:58
Purposeful,
Dr. Joy Allen 1:14:59
but. It's consistent, but it has enough little shift, so it's keeping your attention a little bit because it's just modulating, right? But it's consistent enough, and you know, if we think about, and jazz can work to type of jazz, so it's not just the you know it's the type of how we use the elements that come into play, and that's where you know how the rhythm, the pulse, the the melody lines, the harmonies, and then the interconnected come into play. And it so it's not type music per se. It's how we're using the elements of the music based on what it is that we need.
Alexis Reid 1:15:37
Yeah.
Speaker 9 1:15:37
So
Alexis Reid 1:15:38
very cool.
Dr. Joy Allen 1:15:38
Yeah. So check out the check out the research. Check out what we're doing there, and and don't forget that you know it's your superpower. There's always a way that you can use music to connect. So,
Alexis Reid 1:15:51
Jerry, can you speak to the the movie that we saw recently? I think it's just for those of you out there who are interested in learning more. I think it's a beautiful depiction of music therapy in action.
Gerald Reid 1:16:02
It was the movie "The Music Never Stops, and I think it's based on Alver Oliver Sacks case study. Yes, Oliver Sacks, yes, and it was just a beautiful movie of actually not just how music healed; it was how the music helped this person who had a brain trauma access his personality from the time when he listened to that music, where he didn't really have much of a personality after the brain injury, and there's kind of a whole relationship with his father that gets healed through the music, which is like kind of how music is multifaceted. You know, it's not just doing one thing; it kind of does a lot of things at once.
Dr. Joy Allen 1:16:39
Exactly. Yeah, that's that. in what you just said. Access, explore, create new ways of being. So yeah,
Gerald Reid 1:16:51
awesome,
Alexis Reid 1:16:52
very cool,
Gerald Reid 1:16:53
cool.
Alexis Reid 1:16:53
We're so grateful for you. Thank you for sharing your story, your work, your passion for definitely passion. Yeah, it's incredible. It's infectious, and we can feel it. And we're so grateful for the work that you do, and for sharing a little bit of it today with us.
Dr. Joy Allen 1:17:08
Well, thank you.
Gerald Reid 1:17:09
Yeah, thank you for for highlighting something that's already there and emphasizing the importance. In some ways, we should be doing that with each other too. You know, we're all here. We're existing, and as much as we emphasize the things that are already there, we can also emphasize we are here and appreciate each other as well and ourselves as much as we do with Misa.
Alexis Reid 1:17:29
So, in in our typical fashion, we like to end by just asking, "What's something you're hopeful for, grateful for, as you move forward in in your career and your life?
Dr. Joy Allen 1:17:39
Wow, you know it's. yesterday. I found out that someone who was a second mom to me, who was actually my undergrad professor for music therapy, passed away. And one of the things, and she's a second mom, literally. And you know, and I think about my last conversation with her a couple weeks ago, and she was so much. She's like, "Joy, you get it. It's not. It's not complicated. It's bring the music back. And she was talking about the community health musician certificate program that we started, and to ensure that every community and their music was elevated. Right, that there's not just one one type or one thing, but allow us to connect and learn and grow from one another through music, you know, and even thinking this week with the World Cup and last week with the World Cup, look at the moments, the the songs in the stadiums, the songs on the streets, the rhythms on the streets. Music allows us to be human. It allows us to meet someone where they are. So if I think about what I want or moving forward, it's that we would stop putting it something separate and start saying, you know what? Let me just go sing. Let me just go play. Let me just go share. And and I will also share because I just shared with y'all, I don't get to go to music enough because I am just as guilty of not taking the time. But when I do, it's exactly what I need it.
Alexis Reid 1:19:32
Yeah,
Dr. Joy Allen 1:19:33
and so give yourself permission, everyone, to engage in music in some way, shape, or form.
Alexis Reid 1:19:41
We're so sorry for your loss and so grateful for you sharing such a profound experience and and moment of reflection on just music therapy and also and how it integrates into all of our lives. Yeah, thank you.
Dr. Joy Allen 1:19:56
You're welcome.
Gerald Reid 1:19:56
Thanks for being you, Joy. Hey, thanks.
Dr. Joy Allen 1:20:00
Only one way to be right. Thanks, y'all.
Gerald Reid
Thanks for tuning in to the Reid Connect-ED podcast. Please remember that this is a podcast intended to educate and share ideas, but it is not a substitute for professional care that may be beneficial to you at different points of your life. If you are needed support, please contact your primary care physician, local hospital, educational institution, or support staff at your place of employment to seek out referrals for what may be most helpful for you. ideas shared here have been shaped by many years of training, incredible mentors research theory, evidence based practices and our work with individuals over the years, but it's not intended to represent the opinions of those we work with or who we are affiliated with. The reconnected podcast is hosted by siblings Alexis Reid and Dr. Gerald Reid. Original music is written and recorded by Gerald Reid (www.Jerapy.com) recording was done by Cyber Sound Studios. If you want to follow along on this journey with us the Reid Connect-ED podcast. we'll be releasing new episodes every two weeks each season so please subscribe for updates and notifications. Feel free to also follow us on Instagram @ReidConnectEdPodcast that's @ReidconnectEdPodcast and Twitter @ReidconnectEd. We are grateful for you joining us and look forward to future episodes. In the meanwhile be curious, be open, and be well.
S8 E8: Music Therapy w/Dr. Joy Allen from Berklee College of Music
In this episode, Gerald and Alexis speak with Dr. Joy Allen, Chair of the Music Therapy Department and Founding Director of the Music & Health Institute at Berklee College of Music. This rich discussion acknowledges how music is intricately woven into the fabric of our lives. We invite you, the listener, to reflect on how music has and continues to impact your life. Dr. Allen explains what music therapy is and how music therapists can utilize strategies and interventions that foster healing, empowerment, and growth to support individuals’ mental and physical well-being.
Summary
How music is woven into the fabric of our lives
A conceptual understanding of music therapy
Strategies and interventions used by music therapists
Where and how music therapy can be integrated into healthcare
A reflection of how music impacts you
Be curious. Be Open. Be well.
The Reid Connect-Ed Podcast is hosted by Siblings, educational therapist, Alexis Reid, M.A. and licensed psychologist, Dr. Gerald Reid, produced by CyberSound Recording Studios, and original music is written and recorded by www.Jerapy.com
*Please note that different practitioners may have different opinions- this is our perspective and is intended to educate you on what may be possible.
