S2 E3: The Many Sides of Perfectionism

Listen Now!

• EPISODE RESOURCES

• EPISODE TAKEAWAYS

  • Perfectionism underlies a lot of the mental health challenges that people experience.

  • Perfectionism is an intense striving for some standard a person holds, which can be external and/or internal, and oftentimes both; as well as intense distress that comes from not living up to that standard.

  • Since perfection is an abstract idea it can feel like an “asymptote” (geometry term) in which you get close to the standard but never really reach it.

  • Those who are perfectionistic may fall into ‘analysis paralysis’ in which they over-analyze situations and have a difficult time finding an entry point to get started on a task when things do not come naturally or smoothly at the start.

  • Being perfectionistic is not all ‘bad’, there are healthy and adaptive, as well as unhealthy or maladaptive versions of it that can be impairing to one’s life or within an aspect of one’s life.

  • It can be scary to ‘give up’ aspects of perfectionism because of the praise and external validation that may be received when success is achieved, even if it comes ‘at the expense’ of something in their life.

  • Perfectionistic people may not find satisfaction and contentment with each milestone and with the process if it takes over one’s life.

  • Asking for help, considering alternative pathways, and admitting vulnerabilities can be difficult for those who are perfectionistic.

  • Technology and societal trends can lead people to believe they can ‘bend reality’ or to be ‘everything’, sometimes in a very positive and expansive way, and sometimes to a person’s detriment when the bounds of reality are there for a healthy and adaptive reason.

  • In society, we may see greatness in individuals, like the GOATs, but often it is filtered through an unrealistic lens because it’s only showing the output and the end goal, rather than the process behind it; which can lead individuals to feel like there is something wrong with them.

  • Learning oftentimes in life comes from experience, which takes courage to face the uncertainty that comes from experiences.

  • Perfectionism sometimes can lead people to pursue something out of fear of failure and fear of not being enough, rather than doing it because you want to do it and are engaged in it.

  • You can learn a lot from others who have ‘been through it’ to gain perspective and the steps involved for getting to a very high goal, rather than assuming you’re not far enough along and always ‘not enough’.

  • Knowing what you need and knowing how you feel can help you navigate uncertain situations when you’re still growing and learning. Just ‘working harder’ is not always the answer.

  • People who are perfectionistic may appear to ‘have it all together’ even if they are highly distressed on the inside.

  • Flowing with the natural course of interactions, problem-solving, etc. can lead to more fulfilling, creative, and insightful outcomes, rather than fixating on some perfectionistic standard that you feel you must achieve at all times.

  • Perfectionism can be filled with fear, uncertainty/changes, and lack of control, as well as a sense of comparison, which can lead to over-compensation, over-control, and rigid thinking and behaviors.

  • What a person believes needs to be ‘perfect’ may not actually be the aspect that needs to be ‘perfected’, which can lead to wasting a lot of time. 

  • Perfectionism oftentimes is filled with a lot of pressure, which can be difficult to relieve simply by saying “chill out” but therapy can help a lot with understanding and working to adjust these patterns. 

  • This pressure, including multi-tasking, can consume a lot of energy and not be efficient or effective in the long-run.

  • Self-sabotage can come when there is intense fear of failure. Procrastination (waiting until the last minute) can also be an excuse for not doing one’s best work if there simply isn't enough time to do one’s best work.

  • Perfectionistic people may think they should be much further along than they are and judge themselves for not being there yet. Especially those with attentional challenges, they may not project into the future to see the steps along the way, but instead jump to the end result, which can create a lot of pressure.

  • Being secure within yourself could help you with being distracted by constant comparisons and looking to social media to see what’s going on.

  • Everyone matters in their own way, not just the GOATs. We all have something unique about us that contributes to our life, society, and those around us in our own ways. The sacrifice to be the GOAT is not for everyone.

  • Instead of using the words ‘success’ vs. ‘failure’, a change in language or redefining ‘success’ and ‘failure’ can reduce the pressure a person feels while pursuing excellence.

  • Showing up the way you want to show up can be an alternative paradigm. To be yourself. To have a plan for showing up in a way that makes sense and is genuine to you.

  • Cultivating genuine and authentic and meaningful relationships can be a foundation to keep you steady in life through the ups and downs that are inevitable when pursuing excellence and to offset the desire to impress other people.

  • Our goals and the process of achieving them is oftentimes nuanced. Therefore, being flexible to adjust and adapt can be very helpful. 

  • Admitting vulnerabilities and accepting them is oftentimes that helps with perfectionism.

  • Providing clarity, feedback, multiple entry points, and a gradual pathway forward can help to reduce perfectionism because ambiguity can lead perfectionistic people to err on the side of assuming the worst or overcompensating when things seem ‘off’ or ‘wrong’. 

  • Gaining mastery of theory and foundational skills can help you apply something in a creative and engaging way. Zooming in and zooming out can help you to see how the smaller parts fit into the bigger picture rather than forcing something due to an unreasonable standard.

  • Emotion regulation can help perfectionistic people to tolerate the challenges and uncertainty. Modeling this by adults (parents, coaches, teachers, etc.) is important. Asking reflective questions to children can also help them to develop their own emotion regulation, rather than just ‘fixing’ their problems or expecting them to ‘figure it out on their own’

• TRANSCRIPTION

  Alexis Reid  0:24  

  Welcome back to the Reid Connect-ED Podcast. Today I'm here with my brother and co host, Dr. Gerald Reid. My name is Alexis Reid. And today we're going to talk all about perfectionism. This is such a hot topic right now, Jer, I talk a lot about how, when things are unpredictable, often we try to hold on to the things we have control over. And oftentimes, especially in my work with students, that shows up as perfectionism, things need to be perfect. And I always say there is no such thing as perfection. How do you define perfectionism in your clinical practice?

  Gerald Reid  1:06  

  Yeah, it's a good point you made before that, it's, you may not know exactly what it is like, there's no such thing as perfection. Because it's an abstract concept. It's not like the wall is white, therefore, the walls white, you know, it's not, it's not an objective thing. So that creates a lot of tension between people and other people in your life that, you know, you try to identify what is this perfection you're looking for? Anyway, it becomes very abstract, and with abstraction comes uncertainty. And as he said, with uncertainty comes anxiety, especially when you feel like you have to reach some sort of very high standard. So there's, there's two different versions of how to understand perfectionism, in its most simplest terms, one is a intense striving or desire to reach very high standards. And there's nothing wrong with high standards, that's what makes beautiful, amazing, incredible things in this life is to have a high standard or to work towards it in a gradual way to, you know, have something beautiful or oxygen, we tend to thrive off of that and really appreciate that in life. But it does become extremely unhealthy in time. So that's what we'll get into. And then there's also this really strong distress that comes with not reaching these very high standards that people set for themselves. And that distress can be extremely dysregulated. That's really when it becomes clinically a problem that we want to understand. So again, it's that striving for very high standards that could become extreme. And it's also this distress from not reaching those standards, or even while you're trying to pursue those standards that can become extreme and dysregulated at times.

  Alexis Reid  2:34  

  And I think it's so confusing, not just to young people, but people in general, to think about this concept, really, like you were saying this abstraction of what might be perfect, because oftentimes, we see these visual representations, in media, in social media, sometimes in our daily life, where we only see one version of what's happening. And sometimes it's so artificial, right and thinking about artificial intelligence. Now, as we get further into that zone, which we're not going to touch in this episode, especially. But when we think about how things are artificially designed or created, in our, in our own efforts, sometimes we can try to approximate what might be the perfect version of what we're trying to achieve. But really, there's, there's really no perfect and I think if we set ourselves up for things to be perfect, we're constantly going to be letting ourselves down, if that's our expectation, especially given all the myriad of like responsibilities that people have on every day. And as we go through our lives, it's it's often not just one thing that we can devote our whole lives to, we're often juggling so many different responsibilities at the same time, which I could imagine if we have these perfectionistic tendencies. And we see that you and I see this all the time, I'm sure our listeners see this too. If we have these tendencies, a lot of people or sometimes ourselves can go to the extreme, where it becomes, you know, so debilitating, like we talked about when we describe social anxiety that it really impacts and interferes with your whole life.

  Gerald Reid  4:17  

  Definitely, and it's a dilemma because you can be very high achieving, and you can have a lot of admirers if you're perfectionistic. And so, you know, it's a dilemma for the person, though, you know, it could be it could feel like a risk to want to give that up, even if it's coming with such distress. That's such a good point. Yeah, for sure.

  Alexis Reid  4:38  

  Yeah. Or it almost might feel like you're giving up if you release some of that idealism, right? Or like I need to achieve this. I need to strive for this, otherwise I'm not doing good enough. And I think that's already such a prevalent message that so many have right now. Like I'm just not Doing good enough. I recently was working with educators in a school system running a workshop and my heart broke when one of the educators came up to me at the end and said, I'm so glad to learn so much about executive function and understand the emotional components of it. But I feel like I'm just not doing enough for my students, like maybe I'm not as good at this as I thought I was. And there's a sense of like, you know, there's so much that we don't know that when we start to realize that sometimes we can feel this sense of not being good enough, not having strong worth, even when sometimes just showing up and putting your heart into something is, in my opinion, at least better than achieving this quote, unquote, ideal perfectionistic component of whatever we're putting our, our efforts into,

  Gerald Reid  5:52  

  you know, something from that story stands out to me is that she had humility to say, Hey, I feel like there's something missing with what I'm doing. And this is a bit of a nuance with perfectionism, because people who are perfectionist come across as extremely competent. Like, they got it all together, and they'll tell me, they're like, Oh, everybody thinks I have everything together. Like I'm perfect, and nothing's wrong with me. Well, there's a reason for that is because it's too scary to admit, what would be considered a vulnerability or quote, unquote, failure, however, that is, you know, understood for the person. And so when you tell me that story, I actually hear, maybe not so much of that perfectionism in the unhealthy way. But perfectionism, and maybe a healthy way to say, Hey, I feel like there's something missing here that I might want to learn. And to admit, that is great. But also not to take it personally. Like, it means that there's something inherently wrong with you that, you know, I'm not a worthy teacher anymore, or, you know, I'm a failure or whatever, that's really when it gets unhealthy, for sure.

  Alexis Reid  6:53  

  I'm gonna branch off for a second before we go back to the roots, and in a better defining and explaining this idea of perfectionism, and thinking about this idea of reflection, and constantly analyzing to improve, because I think that can become a slippery slope, whether you're a student, whether you're a parent, whether you're an educator, or in any professional role, or as an athlete or performer, right, like we can always go back and analyze and reflect on things. And I personally believe that's often where we learn the most that's like, kind of like the impetus for change is when we can actually take a healthy reflection, assess what's happening and think about what's possible. But there's also like an analysis paralysis to where we like over do it. And I think that kind of runs the course. And toes, the line, have perfectionistic tendencies where it can kind of get into that extreme zone and be a little bit too much and impact somebody in a negative way.

  Gerald Reid  7:53  

  And it can have the opposite effect of what the person wants, right? If you feel like you just have to keep pushing, pushing, do more, do more, do more. The reality of life if you reflect on life, and learn from other people's experiences and your own experiences, that sometimes that's not the answer, right? You can work on, let's say, an art project or a song or something creative. And you can just run it to the ground where it's like, it's not, it's not really enough not feeling is Giovanni's mom would say, as much anymore, right? Because it's just you kind of take the essence out of it by by pushing too hard. And that can even happen in friendships and relationships, right? You're trying so hard to impress somebody that has the opposite effect. People, you know, genuinely want you to be genuine with them and to feel connected and present. And so trying too hard, sometimes has the opposite effect. And that takes some reflection to figure out when does it become too hard, because you don't want to just give up and say, Oh, I'm just going to give up which actually perfectionistic people tend to do sometimes they tank they give up they retreat, as opposed to kind of towing that balance of the line of you know, trying hard but not trying too hard, but also not giving up that's a it's a fun balance to find sometimes,

  Alexis Reid  9:03  

  there's so many things in there. I just want to touch upon right thinking about even what Johnny's mom from episode when Jelani tells this great story that he would always run his performances in songs by his mom, and she was his greatest critic, but also a greatest teacher, because she would be real with him and say, you know, I'm just not feeling it. And I think that's really important for us to notice to say, Okay, where can I tweak? Where am I? Okay, and anybody who's ever worked with me before my colleagues, friends and co authors, co writers all the above, they know that I have a very detail oriented approach to things and when I start writing and doing things, sometimes I have to stop myself and say, Okay, this is good enough right now, right? If something else needs to be tweaked, I will get that feedback and I will most certainly make that adjustment. But it's hard to let that go when it's especially right especially and I think this is so closely related to end He type of anxiety, it's like when you care a lot about something. When you're giving your all you're putting your heart into something that you know others are going to receive, and hopefully us in some way, it becomes so personal. And it gets really difficult to kind of release that especially, I think we have so many so much noise in the world with people kind of sharing so many perspectives and opinions and judgments a lot of times that it's it's hard to release things into the world without having a little bit of that fear. But, you know, again, I think we need to just be so careful with toeing that line between like reflecting and improving and just overdoing it.

  Gerald Reid  10:43  

  Absolutely. I agree with you on that.

  Alexis Reid  10:46  

  And the other piece, too, is, like you mentioned that oftentimes perfectionistic people who have those characteristics and traits, I want to be very careful not to label people that way. Because oftentimes we label ourselves and that's just who we become, right? We have this self fulfilling prophecy that like, Oh, I'm just always going to do too much, or I'm just not, it's never going to be as good as I want it to be, I'm just perfectionist, or it's a really good way of getting out of doing something is if you just label yourself that way. And I wanted to bring this up, because we often see a lot of procrastination, not just from a student centered approach, but from just people living life, right, where they'll procrastinate, they'll avoid, they'll put things off, because they feel like they might not ever meet the expectation that they have for themselves or that others might have for them. And I you know, I can't tell you how many countless, especially high school and college students that I've worked with, where I say, Hey, listen, do you have a tendency to like, wait for the last minute, because you know, if you get anything wrong, at least you can blame it on the fact that you waited to the last minute, like, Oh, I didn't really have that much time to work on that. That's why it's not that good. That's why I didn't get that A or that score that you were expecting me to get, you know, I just, I had so much else going on. So I had to wait to the last minute, what if that's why it's not that good. You know, the, it's easy to procrastinate. When you have that narrative in your mind, like, Oh, this is how it has to be. And then if you don't approximate that level that you're aiming for, it's a good excuse.

  Gerald Reid  12:22  

  You never think they'd be a perfectionist, right? Because the perfectionist person in your mind might be the person who's just constantly working. But in fact, they may not be working again, to protect themselves, like we find ways to protect ourselves, if we're afraid that we're not going to meet these exceedingly high standards, then we retreat or we find ways to avoid

  Alexis Reid  12:41  

  Oh, absolutely, absolutely. But you know, they might not be actually putting in the work during that whole time between when whatever the project or assignment was assigned, and when it's due, but I will tell you that their emotions are working overtime, right? The stress that they're carrying with them every day, up until they finally clear their plate of that task or assignment is just extraordinary. And they don't realize how much it's impacting them until it's off their plate, and they can finally like, exhale.

  Gerald Reid  13:17  

  That exhale is a big one. And you know, there's something interesting that I've observed too, is that when you feel like you have to do everything by yourself, and sometimes people who are perfectionistic, they have this tendency to say, like, No, I'm gonna do it myself, I'm gonna do my way. Like, I just, I don't want help, I'm going to do it, I know how to do it, I can figure it out how you're laughing, right? Because you see it all the time. And click, you got to, in some ways, respect that, you know, it's great that people want to be self sufficient, and to feel like they can conquer the challenges and take on the world like that. That's an, you know, there's nothing inherently wrong with that. But the extreme version of that is, hey, we all need help. Sometimes. This life is complicated, it's hard. Sometimes, it's confusing. We may not have everything that we need to be able to succeed at a task at a given time, as you always say, what do you need, you may not even know what you need, because you're always thinking you should be able to do everything, just with your given talent, whatever it is. And so there's actually this consequence that I have found comes from this, I have to do it by myself, and then they fail because they ultimately at some point can't do something about themselves. The consequence of that, actually, is that they begin to blame themselves for not being able to accomplish the task, when the reality is they should have never thought they can do it by themselves completely in the first place.

  Alexis Reid  14:37  

  Yeah, I think that the point that you made just before that, like asking for help is such a big deal. People feel like they literally carry this burden of the world on their shoulders, like I need to do this all by myself. If if I was assigned this, if this is something that's coming up as a challenge in my life, then I guess I'm supposed to be able to do this like I should be able to do Do this and my joke and you hear it all over mental health too is like I shouldn't be able to do this, I shouldn't be able to do that. And, and that, again, sets those expectations so high. And it's difficult, especially now, you know, you typically would see it in different geographical areas like where there's, you know, a metropolitan area with high performing individuals, you know, living in the city or around academic institutions where you might have a lot of high achieving individuals. But now with, you know, the advent of social media, like this is prevalent everywhere, this information is not just in these isolated regions, I hear it coming up all around the country, and for my colleagues around the world as well that like this is a big issue. There are people that have these unrealistic expectations for themselves, that they are just knocking themselves over really falling into these all or nothing traps, feeling guilty or shameful when they're not able to do what they think they're supposed to do. And to your point, like on their own, like, it's really this incredible cycle that is really debilitating for so many.

  Gerald Reid  16:12  

  Definitely, yeah, it's a self fulfilling prophecy that you're, you know, the fear of being a failure, actually, you know, they can perceive it coming true because you can't, you can't do everything by yourself, you just can't, especially as life moves on, you always see it middle school years are tend to be the years where the kids were very smart kind of struggle. Because you have to be more self regulated, you have to have higher level skills and thinking skills to manage everything by yourself. And some of the kids never had to use those skills, because they just did the homework real quick, when they were younger, because it was simple. It was easy. And now things get more complicated. And, and it's not like that. So, you know, if you look back on and listen to Giuliani's interview from last episode, you pay attention to what he says about how he got really good at what he does. He often references other people, I'm not going to give it away, go listen to the episode. Pay attention, because there's a lot of references to other people being involved in how he got so good. Not just that, like he relied on them. But he utilized the people in his life and in his career to to, to become better. And that's that takes humility. First of all,

  Alexis Reid  17:16  

  definitely, there's that there's actually a post that I just posted to my friends and family that talked about how we survive burnout. And I'm not going to quote it exactly perfectly. But it was something around, we don't survive burnout by self care alone, we survive burnout by bringing people together and holding each other up, right, it's about our community that helps us get through the challenging moments, instead of just trying to do it on our own.

  Gerald Reid  17:44  

  Definitely, and to learn from other people, like other people have gone through life, there's a reason they have wisdom, like you go through life, you're gonna learn something.

  Alexis Reid  17:52  

  Totally, when I reflect on different stages of my own life, I think about all of these different experiences and how they led me to be able to show up as I do today. And I'm actually excited for as I get older, because I can only imagine the wisdom that I started to accrue, that I can integrate and help to guide and support others. I think, again, I run small groups online right now, for individuals that are in high school or college are young adults. And the best part about those groups is not me, teaching them about how they learn best or about their brains or about executive function or wellness and self care. The best part about that is that they realize that there's other really bright, caring individuals who also struggle sometimes. And to your point about the middle school students who are sometimes struggling as soon as the demands get higher. These kids or people in general, who are really bright, have developed some great coping mechanisms to get through. And as soon as the demands get challenging in a different way, it's not that they can't do it, it's just that they haven't practiced in that way before. And it all goes back to like strategic thinking and executive function skills. And this is why, again, I'm gonna say this probably every episode. This is why I love the work that I do, because it transcends space and time and ethnicity and gender and socio economic class like it comes down to these skills that allow for us to be critical thinkers, to figure out what we need to figure out how to navigate through these different challenges. And essentially, like you said, to learn how to regulate so that we can be available to doing those, that hard work, that heavy lifting that we tend to do every single day. And, you know, this is going to become even more challenging as we go into the future because we don't even know what the workforce is going to look like 10 years from now, right as technology is shifting and changing as the environment is shifting and changing. All these needs are shifting and changing. You know, how do we protect prepare young people for their future? We have to help them learn these skills and not to expect that they can do it all by themselves, right? They rely on their calendars and their phones to tell them everything that they need to do. But somehow they feel like they need to rely on themselves to do everything else by themselves. Right, we've we've used the automaticity of the technology to help us to get through each day. But for some reason, we think we could do the hardest tasks ever by ourselves, it doesn't really make sense. But we fall into that trap. And I think that there's a lot of components in society that reinforce that message, which is really unfortunate. So hopefully, we can share this message through the podcasts to just validate that like, hey, as Jerry always says, Life is hard. And sometimes we need support to do it. And it goes back to those three primary tenants that we always talked about, or I wonder if you can dive deeper into, you know, those three core principles of what it's like to get through life.

  Gerald Reid  20:55  

  Yeah, I mean, it's, for us, it's feeling secure within yourself and your life. And the second being connected to others in something larger than yourself. And, and lastly, feeling strong and strong being you feel capable of handling the, whatever comes your way. And obviously, some things are extremely hard to deal with. And, to our point here, you know, he can't do everything by yourself, you know, and we all need to rely on each other. And, and, and to reflect on what we need, you know, when, when you're perfectionistic, sometimes you don't, you don't spend enough time reflecting on what you need. And if you don't know what you need, you're not going to speak up for what you need, and you're not going to ask for help in the first place. So some ways we got to kind of work even further backwards from the person's not asking for help, but how come they're not asking for, you know, part of it could be they're embarrassed, they don't want to be ashamed for not knowing something they feel like it's a risk to their sense of self, to admit they don't know something, there's perceived consequences of how people react, whether it's valid or not. And then, and then also just, you know, like, if you're not reflecting on what you need, you're not gonna even think about it, you're gonna just react and be impulsive all the time. Yeah.

  Alexis Reid  22:09  

  And my brain is firing on a million cylinders, right now, as you can imagine thinking about how do we support individuals to feel more capable and competent to get to that idea of feeling strong, right, as they're showing up in different aspects of what life is going to challenge them with. But, you know, I want to bring it back to some of the clinical work you do and ask you, like, how do you notice and recognize that somebody is experiencing perfectionism? Right, I again, I try not to label it as just one thing, because we all might experience some of this at different points of our lives. What are those characteristics though, of perfectionism.

  Gerald Reid  22:47  

  So I really try to pay attention to the words that people are using when they're expressing their experiences and their stories, and try to get a sense of the feeling that comes with not being perfect in some way. So first, I want to try to understand what standards they have for themselves. And where that standard come from. It could be internal, it could be external, it could be both, you know, sometimes, you know, I'll hear people say, Oh, I don't know. Like, it's all for me, like, I'm just the one that wants to, like, make everything perfect. Nobody's telling me to do that. And sometimes it's the opposite. Or sometimes it's both, you know, the standards come from somewhere, though, they come from some sort of belief about how things should be and how the person should be. But it's more than that. It's not just the standard, it's about, I really try to get deeper into the sense of self, you know, people have a sense of who they are and how they see themselves. And oftentimes, with perfectionism, it could mask this, you know, this kind of fear of not being enough as a person, like, just as you are. And again, this is a very nuanced, complicated thing, because you wouldn't say to someone, like you wouldn't tell your child like, you know, don't strive for anything, you know, just be the way you are, and never strive for anything, never accomplish everything, anything. Never, you know, think that you have to do more like that's, that's not the message here. And that's why it's these conversations about perfectionism need to be careful and tactful, and that's why therapy is useful to do that. I try to understand the sense of self because, you know, we ultimately try to help the person to get a more holistic sense of self, where it's not just one thing, because a lot of times in perfectionism, there's a fixation on this one thing, this one thing is going to make me valued, cared for loved. This one thing is going to make a difference. And no wonder there's so much pressure. You think of an athlete like oh, I have to be the best I gotta win the gold I have to win the MVP, or else I'm not going to be you know, cared for or people aren't gonna care about me. And the truth is, that might actually be true. Like, you know, you're a celebrity because you were achievements and people like talk about you on social media and all that stuff, but they're not really your they don't have a relationship with them. You don't have a real friendship with them. So in some ways that might be true, but that misses the point. The point is, you can have have real relationships with people that are not contingent on some sort of extreme, you know, value or standard. And there's such a great quote from NBA basketball player, Damian Lillard, he was just interviewed by JJ Reddick. And I don't know how he stumbled across this, but Damian Lillard he was talking about, you know, the exactly what I just said about how you know, image is so important for NBA players, because of the social media age, and because of, you know, how images become so pronounced nowadays. And he said something so great, I'm trying to remember exactly how he put it. But it was essentially, he says, At the end of the day, he has a real life with real relationships, he talks to his family every day, he know he's part of his community. And he feels like that's his worth, is the relationship that's inherently an a value of himself for who he is, and how he shows up, regardless of the fact that he's some All Star NBA player, regardless if he has a championship ring that he can show off to other people. And, you know, that's a rare thing. And, you know, I think he's empathetic towards other players who who don't have that, because there could be reasons they don't have that, maybe, you know, I'm not gonna get into that now. But I thought that was a great, you know, role model for for other athletes who are aspiring to achieve a lot, but also to have something real and foundational underneath their achievements.

  Alexis Reid  26:23  

  I think that's so important for everyone to hear, right, I go back to thinking and I've learned this over the course of my own personal life, that sometimes you want to value the relationships you have, and the moments that are the most difficult, right? Not in those moments where you are succeeding and doing well, and things seem quote unquote, perfect to the outside world, you really want to establish the relationships with people who are going to be authentically there for you, right, those who show up and be their whole selves. And in you feel comfortable being able to do that, I think those are probably some of the best relationships. And, again, going back to Giuliani's episode, you know, he talks about the people who show up and those who have been a part of his life for a long time that, you know, it's such a hopeful message that it's not just about this ideal, or this idea of perfection or success, it really is about the relationships. And you go back to the the evidence and the empirical research, and you see that this idea of connection is actually what leads to longevity that leads to good health, that leaves to wellness and well being. But I'm gonna go back to what you were talking about before to Jared and say, you know, isn't this all about identity formation, like when you are secure in yourself, you can show up and when you make a mistake, it's okay, I see so much conflict across the lifespan from young children, to adults, to those who are later in the stages of their lives towards the end of their lives. Having arguments with other people are feeling uncomfortable when they make a mistake, and they can actually admit it, because everything just has to be a certain way. And it I see it being the opposite of what Damian Lillard was saying that it's like, it's actually breaking down the relationships with this endeavor, you know, trying to become this ideal version of themselves, which might fall short, and often cause more conflict than it needs to.

  Gerald Reid  28:30  

  Yeah, perfectionism, and this kind of ideal image, and whatever you're trying to present could definitely get in the way of relationships. And I always ask people all the time, like, what do you really want? Like, just to sit here for a second? What do you really want?

  Alexis Reid  28:47  

  Okay, press pause, and have our listeners do that for a second. Right? If think about it, like what is your goal? Like, what do you want? What is his version of success that we're striving for? That's such a, it's such a great question that we often don't take the time to explore. Thank you for indulging my pause on that for a moment.

  Gerald Reid  29:09  

  You know, it's hard, like, we're all we're all susceptible to this. Everybody is. And again, it's hard to figure out that line between like, I always hear my patients say, like, well, if I don't hold this ideal, then I'm gonna get lazy, or I'm not going to try as hard. I'm like, my answer is, I've never seen that. Because that's not how it works. That's that's not the point here. That's not the point we're trying to make here. And that's not what happens.

  Alexis Reid  29:37  

  But I think it goes back to like, not only what do you want, what are your goals? What is your version of success, but it's also like, what do you value most? Like, if you're gonna value, this abstract version of perfectionism, that is not even a thing to attain or achieve? And I would say an argue that anybody who looks like they are perfect, have had many different errors that they'd have to admit or fumble through to get to whatever version of themselves that you are idealizing. And I think it's so I think you are hiding it right. And I think, you know, in my work, especially, I am so vulnerable on purpose, because anybody who knows me knows that I do a lot of things. I put my whole heart into everything I do, and I value relationships, and I try my best among everything to connect with the people I care a lot about. And sometimes I fall short, but I've tried my best. But you know, a lot of the students I work with that they know, professionally, all the things that I do. They think that that's like superhuman, and they're like, Well, if you could do all this stuff, why can't I? What's wrong with me? And it just reinforces this narrative in their own heads that they're not enough, where I purposely and I've been doing this since I was teaching in the classroom, I make errors on purpose. And I am authentically reflective in a moment when that gets pointed out either by the students or the clients around me, or I do it in a moment just to catch myself. Right. And sometimes it's intentional. Sometimes it's because I make an error because I'm a human person. Right? And but I do it. You know, I sometimes I exaggerate it, because it's really important for people to see that life is not how many books you've published, how many articles you've gotten approved, how many things that you do that seem to lead you on a path of whatever success looks like for you. You know, how much money you make, like none of that actually matters to me, my day to day, I actually care more about the things that don't go well, because that is my point of learning. And that's point of my part of my process, versus just holding on to these end points. This is this is such a different difficult point for young people whose frontal lobes are still developing, right? Where they often will only see black and white, all or nothing situations where it's really difficult for them to see that process. And the theme for season two in the way we've set it up so far, is really like how do we achieve excellence. And it's not about this like ultimate like Kobe Bryant, Derek Jeter, Mia Hamm, Maria Sharapova like excellence in athletics, right? The the best of the best. That's not the point. It's about excellence in how to live your life. Well, how to think about that process and that path and that journey, versus this all or nothing black and white thinking.

  Gerald Reid  32:51  

  Serena Williams, by the way, there's a bit of a there's a she wouldn't like me saying that there's a bit of a rift between those two. But I would say through this the best of the best.

  Alexis Reid  33:03  

  I think there's there's so many phenomenal athletes. And to that point, actually, anybody who's not Serena, nobody, anybody who's not Serena might think that very, we're not. They don't matter. Right, exactly.

  Gerald Reid  33:17  

  Right.

  Alexis Reid  33:18  

  That just reinforces the point of this conversation. Like,

  Gerald Reid  33:21  

  that's exactly right. It's unbelievable. But

  Unknown Speaker  33:24  

  that's, that's how we've been pre programmed,

  Gerald Reid  33:27  

  that your value is some sort of outward achievement that other people can just fawn over, which is I mean, what, like everybody accepts the greatest of all time, like nobody else matters. Like, wow, we should all matter. We're all special, in our own ways. We're all unique. And it takes time to figure out who we are. And, like we need each other to figure out who we are, and to value ourselves. And to know that we're not just one thing, like we always get hooked on, like, Oh, I'm just this one thing, even athletes, I'm just an athlete, you know, there's a big push more than an athlete, he's a big term now, because you don't understand who you are until you actually, you know, reflect on it, and then realize that you're more than just this one thing, and it takes time to understand that. Oh, my gosh,

  Alexis Reid  34:13  

  it's such a good point. And you do a lot of work with either former athletes or adults that might be shifting from one career to another where you literally are like shedding your old identity and trying to recreate and figure out who you are now, and I would argue that almost every day, we go through the process, if we get so nuanced into like, Okay, how my showing up today, you know, I'm a different version of myself than I was yesterday. But to that point, you know, we are so much more than what we do. But for some reason, society, especially here in the United States, like reinforces that point. But you know, I found myself in this workshop I was referring to before I had the privilege of just kind of like observing some of the educators throughout the day. And I was so grateful to have that opportunity and take that perspective, because I found myself just, in my own mind, celebrating the beauty of how engaged, passionate and really motivated, they were to show up and to do the best for themselves and for their students. And it was such a beautiful thing for me to sit back and watch and be a part of and contribute to, and even some small way, I was so proud. And I found myself reflecting on the fact that, you know, especially educators right now, in 2023, given everything that we've gone through with COVID, and really needing to fight for more respect in the US, especially, that we really need to value educators as like the superheroes of the world, right? Like our educators that are out there, our mental health providers right now are doctors who are out there, even those who support them, all of these people who have been holding up the world for the past few years. They are so amazing. And I hope that they value themselves and feel that privilege that they have to be able to be a part of each other's worlds and these children's worlds and the communities worlds because this is really what it talks about. When we think about success, I would actually argue that educators are sometimes the most critical, because if we have a few students who aren't doing as well as we would want them to, we might feel like failures, even though there's a slew of others who are doing really well, because they've been supported and get what they need. I think it's a really big challenge, not to strive for perfection, especially when you are somebody who cares for others, that we really want to do our best for those we work with. And I this has been difficult for me in my my job in my career where I have to take a step back and say, I'm actually not responsible for the people I work with, to get a certain grade, my job in my role is to facilitate and guide this process with and for them. Right and, and it took a lot of work for me to separate myself from the outcome is my point. And I think this is where when we have any perfectionistic tendencies we can get really hooked on that outcome, regardless of your profession, your career, your status in life.

  Gerald Reid  37:31  

  So let's, let's kind of, you know, relate that to just the way life is it whether you're a parent, whether you're a teacher, whether you're a therapist, right? If you're if you're focused so much on the outcome, you're it's a short sighted version of how to help someone, because in your work, right? If the person is fixated on the outcome, they're not going to learn about what it takes to be self regulated to learn what they need to learn, how to strategize, how to manage their time, how to get what they need, how to, you know, budget, you know, the different aspects of their lives to get things done in a balanced way. And if they don't develop that, they may get the grade, but in the long run, they don't have the foundation that's going to help them to sustain themselves. And for me, and as a therapist to like, I don't just want people to feel better, I also want people to have a foundation to sustain them through their life. You know, with perfectionism, a lot of times it comes down to, you know, how do you have a different paradigm in terms of how you see yourself, and what it means to have these standards and how to not get rid of standards just to reshape them in a way that's going to be a bit healthier for you that you care about that's meaningful to you, and to people around you. Yeah,

  Alexis Reid  38:43  

  I've been using kind of gross, but I've been using the metaphor of like a band aid versus stitches, right, a band aid might, you know, cover the wound, help it in the short term. But if you really have something going on where you need stitches, it might take a little longer to heal, but that part of your body will get stronger, and be more solid moving forward to sustain you. And, you know, it's uh, you know, it's kind of gross, but I think it serves a point that I could help people in the short term, but my goal is really to help them to feel confident, right to build up that strength within themselves, that they're not thinking, Oh, I only did this because I worked with Alexis, right? I want them to feel like I did this because I was able to figure out what I needed, activate this skill. And now I can see how I use it across different contexts and different ways in my life that sustains me for the future versus just getting through a moment that feels stressful.

  Gerald Reid  39:50  

  It empowers them. It empowers them. It's about them. It's not about you. It's not about the parents or the teachers. It's about it's about them. self discovery, understanding And, and embrace it and embracing the relationships like you and the teachers and the people in our life to be part of their, their process, but it's about it's about them and their growth in their evolution and their, and their healing all that stuff. It's about, it's like empowering them to realize, Hey, you did that I'm part of your journey. I'm here to support you through it, I'm guiding you, but you're the one who did it good for you.

  Alexis Reid  40:21  

  Totally, totally. And I, you know, I have to check my ego, as I'm sure you and most therapists and educators have to do and, you know, check it out the door and be like, Listen, this is not about me, if you are able to build and gain some skills that helps you to thrive for the rest of your life, doesn't even matter. If you remember me, I just want you to be able to take that and run with it. That that becomes a part of who you are, as you're learning about yourself. That's the most important part of my work at least. And, you know, I say all the time that and I'm sure you do too, in your work, I'd love to hear from your perspective. I say all the time. And I have a million strategies, a million tools, I can help to tutor or support you in this moment. And maybe part of what we do will be that. But really what I want you to do is to build this awareness, this this conscious awareness of like, what do I actually need right now, instead of going back and falling into that all or nothing trap, which we can really get stuck in where like you said, you can start to feel shameful or embarrassed or upset or worthless. And, you know, honestly, this is where we're seeing a lot of our mental health crises where you know, kids or young people or people in general, just feel like they can't trust in themselves. Because they think if I can't do this by myself, then what's the point? What they have no faith in life a lot of times, which is really a scary thing to think about.

  Gerald Reid  41:45  

  Yeah, to trust, and nothing, including yourself or the people around you is a scary place to be. And so trust comes from really understanding yourself being honest with yourself and being vulnerable. And that's trust, like, you know, perfectionistic tendencies can create this fragility that's like, it's hard to trust yourself, when you're fragile. When you're like afraid that one thing is gonna go wrong, it's gonna be a catastrophe and ruin everything or, or, you know, and look, you asked me about the mental health aspect of how perfectionism shows up, and I can get into that. But, you know, trust comes from building that foundation.

  Alexis Reid  42:21  

  Yeah, so we mentioned a lot of this already, but I wonder if you can synthesize or summarize a little bit of like, what are some of those factors that lead to perfectionism that you often see in the clients you work with?

  Gerald Reid  42:34  

  Yeah. And so I'll start here that there is research that kind of shows that perfectionism is what we call trans diagnostic, meaning it cuts across a lot of different mental health diagnoses, whether it's social anxiety, where you kind of compare yourself to the ideal of others, whether it's an eating disorder, where you have kind of an ideal version of what your body should look like, or body dysmorphia. Depression, which is kind of not living up to some sort of standards in life and feeling hopeless about it. OCD, which is, you know, things have to be a certain way and kind of a perfection of just the way things are generalized anxiety, just worrying about being able to do everything and to accomplish everything to the highest level. So how does it How does it come about? Well, I always say this, you know, mental health is not one thing, it doesn't, it doesn't manifest because of one thing, in my opinion, at least, there's a lot of things and they can all feed into each other, all these different factors. So kind of starting on a personality level, like some people are just more what we call have more neuroticism, which is a personality trait of just being more prone to feeling negative emotion, in reaction to something in a strong way. Some people are just more emotional, that's just, there's a variety of people in this world. And thank God there is, you know, we need variety, right? Across the world to just be one thing and like, how could we survive as a species like that, and have we, you know, appreciate differences without that so. So so in this case, it'd be a strong emotional reaction to a perceived failure will be much stronger for someone with that. Also, conscientiousness is another personality trait, people who are very meticulous about details, as you said, for yourself with the details of things and, and really having high standards for just what they're doing. You know, it's kind of the old phrase, if you're going to do something, do it right the first time. So these are personality traits that some people are just predisposed to having. And it manifests. You know, unfortunately, sometimes imperfection isn't that can be unhealthy if you don't really understand yourself and learn when you can find the traps that lead you to the extreme, the extreme, the extreme, because these traits are not bad enough in themselves. It's not bad to be conscientious. It's not bad to be emotional. It becomes a problem when it becomes dysregulated and extreme, and that's why you know, self reflection in therapy and all that stuff is useful. And I can get into some other aspects of how this develops.

  Alexis Reid  44:58  

  So Jerry, I'm also thinking that You know, sometimes parents, or adults in children's lives might feel responsible for some of this perfectionism that might come up, right, or even some of these executive function challenges that I work with on a day to day where parents might say, you know, I recognize that I've been very successful I or people in their world might be high achieving, how is that influencing them, I never want to push them too hard. And this is how they're showing up, they're really pushing themselves to the extreme, where it feels perfectionistic or, you know, to the point of the primary purpose of my work is that they'll say, you know, their executive function skills just are so lacking is it because I've been doing too much for them, where I have to help them, you know, pull it back a little bit, and remind them that there's no one reason that this happens, that these challenges come up, or these characteristics present themselves, it's often a myriad of like, a lot of different things happening at the same time. And I do remind them of environmental influences, too, right. Because when there is a lot of stress and pressure, or if things seem unpredictable, or uncertain, especially as they have been these past few years, it could lead to these vulnerabilities that are inherent, and people to kind of show up in these more maladaptive or not necessarily the strongest, most capable versions of themselves showing up when, when these triggers might happen in the environment. I'm wondering, from your perspective, in your clinical work, what that looks like,

  Gerald Reid  46:36  

  yeah, you know, if if the child is exhibiting perfectionism behaviors, you're going to have a reaction from the parents, or the people in their life, right? Because you'll hear things like, I just want them to chill out, or like, you know, just like, can they stop, you know, procrastinating, because they think everything's so like, it's going to evoke a reaction in the parents. And, and so, you know, regardless of how it developed in the first place, I don't really want to get into that, because, you know, there's a lot of different reasons why people become the way they are. And it's usually the interaction of the person and the people in their environment, and so forth. And like, we're all we're all flawed, we all have, you know, vulnerabilities, and it all plays out in families, I don't really want to get into the details of that. But, you know, the main thing is, if I'm working with someone, let's just understand what's happening. And let's try to find a way to understand what the child needs to, you know, relinquish the, you know, these perfectionistic tendencies. And so some things could be, you know, go out of your way to let the child know that they have permission to fail at something sometimes, or go out of your way to say to the child, when you're trying to fix their problem for them. Or when you're, maybe you have a tone, or maybe getting a little critical, go out of your way to say, oh, shoot, you know, I think I'm doing something you don't like, I think I think he might not like when I do that. Maybe it's, you know, maybe it's making you feel like you can't come to me with your vulnerabilities because maybe I'm getting anxious or frustrated. And maybe you don't like that. So, so. And I don't, I don't expect parents that become Buddhas. And like, become super calm and chill, and like, okay, everything's fine, even though we got a problem here, like, but to at least go out of your way to send the message that, you know, I'm, I don't have to, I don't have to be a perfect parent. First of all, you don't have to be perfect parent. And you're vulnerable to to maybe reacting in a way that, you know, may not be helpful to the child, but let's just say it and say hey, like I'm sorry, like, what can I do differently? Like, I don't want you feel like you got to be afraid to make mistakes, I want you to come to me or mistakes. That's what I'm here for. And that's, you know, takes time to figure out how to do that and how to say it.

  Alexis Reid  48:53  

  Yeah, that goes back to my point of, you know, when I was in the classroom, and even in my work now day to day that I make these mistakes on purpose for when I make mistakes, or potentially say something that wasn't exactly as clear as I wanted it to be to point that out and be like, let me try that again. Or, Yeah, I noticed that that's not correct. Or when I was teaching math, in particular, I would make mistakes in the problem and let the kids pointed out, right? Or they're like, Oh, we you got to the right answer. But there's something wrong with those steps, especially from an executive function perspective, right? That really reinforces, oh, we need to focus on that process rather than just the answer. And I would be very gracious in accepting their feedback and say, Oh, I'm so glad you pointed that out to me, right? I didn't notice that I forgot the decimal there. Or I skipped ahead to another part of the problem without fully finishing that part of the process, and getting them to zoom in and focus on that because oftentimes, students who have a tendency of just Getting things sometimes they skip all those steps. And they don't recognize any of that. So it the same goes at home, if you're a caregiver and you're making dinner and you like put a little too much of something in instead of like beating yourself up in the moment be like, Oh, I can't believe I do that be like, oh, man, I've heard a little too, it's gonna be a little too salty, just giving you a heads up, right? Instead of it becoming this really big deal. Those little moments matter a lot. And those are really teachable moments. So oftentimes, when parents come to me to talk about some of the challenges that their children are facing, they might express their own worries about being successful, or what their children's version of success might be, because there weren't

  Gerald Reid  50:45  

  enough to support the child's success.

  Alexis Reid  50:47  

  Yeah. And I think that they're worried about how that might be contributing to perfectionism. Not only just in their homes or their communities, but also like the exposure to different information that young people are getting from social media and from just the world in general. They're, they're trying to help to level the playing field on what success looks like, right, they want to give their kids every opportunity, they have to succeed, and to do well, and to find their own path and figure out what they enjoy the most. But I think they're also afraid of their kids getting wrapped up in that process to a point where they feel like things need to be perfect, what advice you give to parents in those situations to help them to one be validated and feel okay, with where they're at, because this seems to be such a prevalent issue these days, but also to best support their children and themselves.

  Gerald Reid  51:43  

  Yeah. You know, the first thing to remember as parents is like, you don't have to be a perfect parent, first of all, because if you put too much pressure on yourself, that's gonna make you anxious yourself. And, you know, again, like parenting, there's no playbook for it. There's no like, 100% rules for how to be the best parent. And so it's an abstract idea again, so you know, try to figure out your own ideals that you have for yourself to not put excessive pressure on yourself, because that could come across, as in some ways, modeling perfectionism. If you're worried about yourself,

  Alexis Reid  52:16  

  Wait, you mean, all of the social media accounts and books and podcasts out there telling parents how to be good parents? Is not a playbook for you and your children?

  Gerald Reid  52:26  

  Yeah, good point. I mean, look, there's advice and their suggestions. But like anything in life, there's not one perfect thing. Take this as a metaphor. So I work with some students who are in an engineering field. And they say, you know, like, we learn about all these theories about how to engineer how to do engineering. And so when we go into the real world, outside of academia, and we try to apply these theories, we learn pretty quickly that there's way too many variables involved for this theory to work out perfectly well. And I'm like, wow, that's such a great metaphor for perfection. Yeah, you know, and that applies to parenting too. But that doesn't mean you don't strive to be a great parent for your child, and to really, you know, provide what your child needs, but to be careful about what it is that your child actually needs, you know, and you always say this, what does success mean, you know, try to be clear about what it means to be successful. I've worked with a lot of adolescents who have this, you know, real fear of the future about like, if I don't, you know, work 1,000% If I don't do everything I had to do, then my future is going to be a disaster. And maybe there's fear going on, and social media or society nowadays that you know, because there's, you know, scary stuff about the economy and all these other things. And but the point is that you know, who you are, and this was my message, who you are, is a constant, no matter what happens in the future. And so you better start figuring yourself out, and supporting who you are understanding yourself and having that foundation that we talked about, because regardless of what happens in the future, you can't predict it, you will be the constant and you better start, you know, appreciating who you are loving yourself, developing yourself understanding what you need, and growing, not just to be a perfectionist, that one thing, or to, you know, have some sort of extremely high standard that you're striving for, but to be a whole person that could, that could sustain yourself to the future. And so that's one thing. The other thing too, is just be careful as a parent with your energy around the child when when something like a perceived failure comes up, because children look to their parents for cues as to how they should feel. And for all adults, they look to their coach, the teachers, even their parents are like, Okay, how are they reacting to me, because that's going to tell me how I should feel. And so, you know, I'm not suggesting that parents should become a Buddha and just become like completely, you know, chill and relaxed whenever their child comes with a vulnerability.

  Alexis Reid  54:53  

  I would argue that's not actually what every child needs to write.

  Gerald Reid  54:57  

  Sure that right and there's no one size fits all. For what a child needs in a given moment, but what I'm saying is, I think children, sometimes particularly your kids who are very perfectionistic, they need permission, explicit and implicit permission to not always have some extremely high standard that they have to achieve, that their worth is not, you know, inherent within that achievement, that they are valued in of themselves that the most treat this as kind of a rule of thumb, you want them to come to you with their challenges and their struggles and their vulnerabilities and their failures, you want them to want to come to you, and just shape the way that you give messages to them around that. And look, adolescents grew up, they want to individuate, they want to kind of separate themselves from their parents with couldn't make this whole thing complicated, because they tried to be independent. But at the same time, you know, as much as you can try to foster that, hey, look, where your safety, where your safe place to, to come when you have failure, we'd rather know than not know. And we want to understand what happened before that behavior that led to, you know, this problem or challenge or a perceived failure, we want to understand what came before it, because that's going to be the self reflection, the growth comes from understanding what led to it in the first place, and will support you. And that's not about the outcome as much as it about what led to it in the first place. And then the child can also grow because they're learning about themselves rather than just you know, reacting or being angry or upset or, or were shamed, feeling ashamed that they didn't live up to some standard, such great advice. And to your point, it doesn't mean that we did it to your point, it doesn't mean that you get rid of standards or boundaries or consequences for things that you know, may need it, because that's also part of parenting. But it's it's a healthy balance of both.

  Alexis Reid  56:45  

  Yeah. And going back to what I said earlier, I think a lot of times young people look up to the adults in their lives, and they see how they're able to navigate through things or not. And I think again, like, like you said, they cue off of some of the things that they observe, and they notice. So if you are not sharing your challenges, if you are acting as if things need to be, quote unquote, perfect, that there aren't going to be struggles along the way that everything just runs smoothly, right, that's actually doing a disservice to them as they're figuring things out. Because a lot of times, kids especially who have a difficult time regulating, if they are struggling on like a bio, physiological, psychological level to be able to regulate themselves in their learning that process, they might think there's something wrong with them, because they can't do that yet. Right? If they see all of the images and the cues around them, that everybody's just even keeled and just getting through it, and everything's perfect, it's going to make them feel inherently bad. Because they're not there yet. They haven't figured that out. And there's, there's a process to it. And sometimes for some kids, it's going to take a little bit longer than others. So we want to help them to understand themselves. And sometimes we need to meet them where they are, and share and validate when things are tough, right doesn't mean that you discount every single challenge and say, Oh, it's okay. That's all right. It's every deal. That's not what we're saying here either. We are saying, right, like, can we actually like take a step back, who is zoom out a little bit and see how one small error does or does not impact the bigger picture of things. Because I think that zooming in and zooming out, it's such a huge perceptual shift for kids that they have a really difficult time seeing that gray area between the black and white. And we really need to help them to be able to see that and we need to scaffold that as adults in their lives until their prefrontal cortex is are fully developed. That's a really difficult thing for them to do.

  Gerald Reid  58:49  

  Yeah, look, to be afraid of failure is not inherently wrong, that thing, but to be terrified of failure, that's perfectionism. And it's unhealthy for, you know, and it's like, think of an athlete who, you know, the moment they make a mistake, they get pulled out of the game, like immediately, every time that happens, you know, the athletes going to be afraid to get back into the game because they're afraid it's gonna like they're going to be immediately punished for making a mistake, and hey, look, maybe they need to learn to, you know, change the way they're approaching that situation. So that same problem doesn't keep happening, but but at the end of the day, to foster confidence to pursue something rather than to be terrified and avoid failure. Those are two very different things. And when I was watching this documentary about tennis, you know, one of the announcers said, you know, the best, the best tennis players the best ever. They have this quality where they're not afraid of failure. They just show up and they say, I'm gonna go do what I'm going to go do. I'm gonna go do it. You know, and I don't know how true that is. We can't get into the minds of all these athletes, but I think there's something to that

  Alexis Reid  1:00:00  

  I'm kind of just showing up and putting it out there. And I would, I would argue a lot of performers. And a lot of people who are those that a lot of young people look up to would would agree that they show up. And when they actually do their best is when they are giving themselves a little bit of space and time to just be to be their authentic selves. They put in the work, they've practiced the skills, they're showing up, and they're like, let's see how it integrates to your point before that integration of like, here's the theory, here's the skill. Here's the new context, can I bring those pieces together, it's so important.

  Gerald Reid  1:00:36  

  Totally. And life is like an art. I think, for these performers in these athletes, Every moment is new. That's why Jelani talked about being present is essential. And I do think I mentioned this in season one, the more security you are within yourself, the more present you are with people in with what you're doing. And that's where that creativity and that art of the present moment of performing, and athletics comes into play, it really frees you up, because everything can't be so rigid all the time. You know, that's when you really expand yourself.

  Alexis Reid  1:01:05  

  Yeah. And to just touch upon some of the neuroscience behind all this, sometimes we go into this focus mode, and I often will take my fingers, and I will grasp them together really tightly and have students say, okay, when we're focused, sometimes we're zoomed in so much, that's the only thing we could see. So if I put my hands in front of my eyes, I could only see my hands. So sometimes that's really helpful. But if we're overdoing it, we're overly focused on any one thing at a time, that could become stressful, but he had fatigued, we might run out of resources. So we need to kind of like unhook a little bit. And this goes into the neuroscience of like this diffuse network where we can actually relax. And there's a lot of research that shows that that's where the creativity lies, that's where problem solving lies, where you can kind of give ourselves a little space a little bit of time, to not overly focus, but be focused enough, right, in a more relaxed state, that we can start to integrate some of those pieces of the things that we've been learning. And it's so important to give yourself that opportunity. And I and I believe and you can, hopefully back this up, perfectionists are really just like super hooked in an overly focused on this one thing, often the outcome, that they really miss the bigger picture of everything else that it takes to get there.

  Gerald Reid  1:02:20  

  Definitely. And look, I don't want people coming away from this episode blaming themselves or, or others, you know, I don't want this to be about blame for why someone becomes such a perfectionist person in this unhealthy way. There's a lot of reasons for it, I'm not going to get into all the reasons that could factor in, you know, from experiences and so forth. But what the point of this is, let's just understand what's happening and gain some awareness around where you might want to make a bit of a change from from here to there. You know, like, don't wait too long, because Derek Jeter, he has a documentary that came out on ESPN. And he's he's definitely a bit of a perfectionist that I'm sure he would admit that if I ever got a chance to talk to him, Jeter. And so he said, he said, You know, when I looked back on my career, I was always like, what's next? What's next? What's next? You know, a lot of the greatest athletes of all time, they had that mentality, you know, focus on what's next. Keep getting better, keep improving, keep winning. And he did make a comment though. He said, you know, but I never got a chance to enjoy anything. And that's kind of sad, you know? Yeah.

  Alexis Reid  1:03:31  

  It's a powerful statement. I think about that all the time. I feel blessed to be at a point in my career in my life where I feel really good. And I'm like, Oh, I've been working so hard for this for so many years. And then I'm like, Oh, do I do I climb another mountain? Or do I just kind of enjoy this right now, right here. And I'm glad you said that, you know, it's not about blaming, because I would argue that I have some perfectionistic tendencies, sometimes I will fully admit that. And I work hard to keep that in check to really like be able to zoom out and be like, Whoa, is this really where I need to be? What is the goal and the purpose? And how is this serving me right now at this point of my life? Because you're right, like, theater is one of the best of all times. And I would probably argue that he would say, and I don't want to speak for him. But I imagine that he would say that, you know, he's really proud of the work that he put in and what he did to get to where he is in the historical perspective of his career and his life and how people look up to him in that way. And it's a beautiful thing. You know, he's inspired so many people to be dedicated to be self discipline to really focus on one thing at a time. And there are many other examples of this. But I think what we're saying here is when it gets to the extreme, where it impacts you and your mental health so much, that it doesn't allow for you to appreciate and enjoy other aspects of your life is the is the point that we want to make But that's where we might need to reevaluate, we might need to press pause and think about a different approach to better support yourself or others in those moments.

  Gerald Reid  1:05:11  

  Totally. Yeah. And I think we'll, we'll kind of end on this note that, you know, when we talk about perfectionism, it's kind of like a philosophy that people have a belief about how things should be, that's pretty deep, you know, so I don't expect someone walk into my office after one session to just, you know, all of a sudden be different after one session, they can certainly get something out of it. But this is a process, you know, people have to go through their own journey, their own process to understand themselves and to, to figure out, you know, what makes the most sense to them. And that takes long conversations, it takes getting in touch with their feelings and their experiences, how things have shaped them, and, and to be honest about, you know, what's going on. That's the main thing, as long as people are open and honest, and they know that I'm not going to be there to judge them on there to understand them. You know, that's a that's a special experience to have, you know, if it can happen therapy or with somebody else in their life, it's, you know, this is a process that takes time,

  Alexis Reid  1:06:06  

  time. And, you know, if you want to get started, even today, thinking about this, if any of this resonated with you, I've said this before, take a moment, take out a notebook or a journal and start writing it down. Write down what success means to you. What does it mean to work towards success? When do you start to concretely idealize, like, what is what your experiences take that abstract and make it a little bit more concrete? Sometimes that reveals more of where you're at, where you want to be, and what you do about that? And I think it's, it's an important process to just press pause and check in with yourself, even if maybe taking the therapeutic approach isn't right for you right now. You know, take a moment just to start writing things down. And I would say also, perfectionism, again, the part of perfectionism that we're really cautioning about is when it takes over becomes extreme, I would argue, because both Jerry and myself, we have worked really hard to get to the point we're at in our professional careers. And some might have described us as perfectionist, as we were working really hard, because we're very focused on things and at different points of our lives. Some of that might actually serve as well. And be mindful of where it fits in your life and where it might interfere with your life, I think is what our final message is really think about that think about what you need. And keep going back to this sense of awareness of like, how does this serve me? What do I need? What's my goal? Just keep coming back to those questions, and see where you lie, and reach out to those who you think could support you. Because as we started this episode, it really is about community it's support. It's about those around us who continue to help guide and provide feedback along the way. We're grateful to be a part of your worlds and we look forward to future episodes. Thanks for joining us today and the Reid Connected podcast.

  Gerald Reid  

  Thanks for tuning in to the Reid Connect-ED podcast. Please remember that this is a podcast intended to educate and share ideas, but it is not a substitute for professional care that may be beneficial to you at different points of your life. If you are needed support, please contact your primary care physician, local hospital, educational institution, or support staff at your place of employment to seek out referrals for what may be most helpful for you. ideas shared here have been shaped by many years of training, incredible mentors research theory, evidence based practices and our work with individuals over the years, but it's not intended to represent the opinions of those we work with or who we are affiliated with. The reconnected podcast is hosted by siblings Alexis Reid and Dr. Gerald Reid. Original music is written and recorded by Gerald Reid (www.Jerapy.com) recording was done by Cyber Sound Studios. If you want to follow along on this journey with us the Reid Connect-ED podcast. we'll be releasing new episodes every two weeks each season so please subscribe for updates and notifications. Feel free to also follow us on Instagram @ReidConnectEdPodcast that's @ReidconnectEdPodcast and Twitter @ReidconnectEd. We are grateful for you joining us and we look forward to future episodes. In the meanwhile be curious, be open, and be well.

In this episode, Alexis Reid and Dr. Gerald Reid discuss the topic of perfectionism. This phenomenon has increased and impacted many over the past decade, especially young people. Perfectionism spans the many mental health challenges for which individuals seek help. With the increase in points of comparison in the media and through social media, determining the difference between reality and fiction may be difficult to distinguish. The uptick in perfectionistic tendencies may be one explanation for the steep rise in mental health problems in the USA and abroad. 

This episode shares education on what perfectionism is, the adaptive and maladaptive aspects of perfectionism, and discusses what individuals can do to support those whose lives are negatively impacted by extreme levels of perfectionism. 

Be curious. Be Open. Be well.

The ReidConnect-Ed Podcast is hosted by Siblings Alexis Reid and Dr. Gerald Reid, produced by and original music is written and recorded by www.Jerapy.com

*Please note that different practitioners may have different opinions- this is our perspective and is intended to educate you on what may be possible.